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sirroundsound
07-30-2006, 06:49 PM
I have a couple of condos spec'ed with Netstreams digilinx, but have to go and see a 25k sqft home this week. I recall a couple of posts here about this line, any thoughts about using it in projects of this size. I would normally be inclined to go the AMX route, but the client has already asked about Netstreams.

AudibleSolutions
07-30-2006, 11:44 PM
It is perfect for large homes as there are no additional processors to purchase and no practical limits on zones. I believe they have released an AMX module so integration ought not to be much of a problem. For some reason I never got around to testing the Crestron module. I forget the maximum number of allowable zones but something like 1088 is what come to mind. Installing 100 zones will be no problem. Sound quality is still a bit of an issue, even with the newer amps.

Alan

sirroundsound
07-31-2006, 07:47 AM
Thanks Alan,
Sound quality, are you able to offer a comparison to any other whole house music system?
Is it OK sounding and you were expecting better?
What speakers have you used?

For our basic in wall/ceiling speakers we use Linn or Solus. Also could use Triad. Do you think I will be dissapointed?

Beau
08-26-2006, 05:45 PM
Seriously guys...don't do it...use a real product.

tomciara
08-26-2006, 10:45 PM
...use a real product.
My response would be "use a real quote" as in, could you elaborate, give some concrete reasons, cautions, etc. You just shot a flare and provided no help.

ejfiii
08-26-2006, 11:10 PM
Beau, are you JBJ from RC? If so, you're anti netstreams rants in every netstreams thread can get a little long in the tooth. No offense meant at all.

My problem with a Digilinx system in a 25k ft. house is that it will cost every bit as much as an AMX or Crestron Audio system. But with AMX and Crestron you get all the other possibilities too.

Sound wise its fine for background music. Although I haven't heard their 50watt amps. You'll be fine with any of your speakers.

Beau
08-26-2006, 11:37 PM
Beau, are you JBJ from RC? If so, you're anti netstreams rants in every netstreams thread can get a little long in the tooth. No offense meant at all.

My problem with a Digilinx system in a 25k ft. house is that it will cost every bit as much as an AMX or Crestron Audio system. But with AMX and Crestron you get all the other possibilities too.

Sound wise its fine for background music. Although I haven't heard their 50watt amps. You'll be fine with any of your speakers.

Ya...one in the same :D I figured I would skip the "rant" this time as you've heard it all before.

If any of you want to hear all the reasons why I think Netstreams is a terrible product/company...shoot me an email and I'll give you a call and we'll talk about it.

(PS - if their 50W amps are the same ones they use in the Musica product they suck ass)

EDIT: - ok...rant below :)

Beau
08-27-2006, 12:00 AM
My response would be "use a real quote" as in, could you elaborate, give some concrete reasons, cautions, etc. You just shot a flare and provided no help.

;) Concrete reasons:

1) Horrible tech support/product support/returns/exchanges. Condesending (sp?) techies that assume you are retarded and aren't polite about it.
1a) Distributed through @^@)...which further complicates the issue.
1b) They are in Texas and operate on Texas time...so your tech support window (if they even answer the phone)
2) Non typical wiring scheme. Although you can place all the equipment in the head end...it's not really intended to be done that way and is a PITA to incorporate into an industry standard head end type pre wire. Placing the amp next to the speakers is a great concept but not practical and a total waste as their amps do not sound good.
3) Experimental technology. Audio over IP (whatever way THEY do it) is unreliable do to a variety of factors. The same factors that affect the performance of any network.
4) Lies. False promises related to release dates. features and functionality of equipment.
5) Blame Shifting. They will make any excuse and all attempts to waste your time instead of theirs. They will give you a laundry list of procedures for testing which basically means tearing apart your work just to realize it's their units that have gone haywire.
6) Premature firmware update releases. They constantly are "fixing" their experimental system in hopes to get it right...but some updates may leave your system in a worse state then the previous "update"
7) Substandard amplification. Their digital amps sound terrible...I've heard 20W systems that sound better.
8) Expensive! What a rip! For what you get...you pay ALOT! WE are their customers. In my estimation whatever you are charging your customers for this stuff is too much if you are not passing it along for cost!
9)That's all for now...if you are wondering why I'm so jaded...I really wanted to Love this product...I really tried...I spec'd it on a large job and it was a disaster (I made it happen, cause I'm a pro, but nonetheless it was a major PITA and LOTS of drama that NOBODY should have to go through). Choose AMX...or Crestron...it'll make you look like a champ and your customers will actually get what they really want! ;)

AudibleSolutions
08-27-2006, 05:05 PM
;) Concrete reasons:

1) Horrible tech support/product support/returns/exchanges. Condesending (sp?) techies that assume you are retarded and aren't polite about it.

Might be you and not them. In your case if they assumed you were challenged they'd be correct. I have relatively few problems with their tech support but then again my brain is safely in my head as opposed to my ass.


1a) Distributed through @^@)...which further complicates the issue.

I'd prefer it was not distributed from AVID but I also get Fujitsu and Sharp out of Avid. Complaining about this too, are you?


1b) They are in Texas and operate on Texas time...so your tech support window (if they even answer the phone)

For years, AMX did the same. Crestron functions on EST--until recently. If you are on PST then you get up early. Stock exchange operates on EST so a west coast investor is in his office at 6:30 PST. Get a freakin' life.


2) Non typical wiring scheme. Although you can place all the equipment in the head end...it's not really intended to be done that way and is a PITA to incorporate into an industry standard head end type pre wire. Placing the amp next to the speakers is a great concept but not practical and a total waste as their amps do not sound good.

If you could remove you head from you hind quarters long enough to get a breath of fresh oxygen you might discover that their wiring is perfectly typical for.............................IT! Gee, it's touch to retro-fit this system into an existing wiring scheme? NOT!!!! Most homes have structured wiring in place for you to steal a CAT 5. How many reto-fit jobs have wires in place to support touch panels? Think it might be possible to drop a 16x4 from the attic or up from the basement to power the touch panel and find a network wire in the attic to get data? You have to be able to think outside the box just a bit but really not all that much.


3) Experimental technology. Audio over IP (whatever way THEY do it) is unreliable do to a variety of factors. The same factors that affect the performance of any network.

Nonsense. One needs to keep in mind the genius making these foolish statements. There really is nothing experimental about Netstreams. It is using Ethernet protocols is all. But as there are many wiring topologies in the field that have CAT5 and speaker wiring in a keypad location it's not all that novel. How long has steaming audio been around? At least 5 years and quite possibly longer. I installed video conferencing systems using a CODEC 10 years ago. They solved the problem of latency which Microsoft tried and could not.


4) Lies. False promises related to release dates. features and functionality of equipment.
Netsteams is hardly unusual in this respect. Crestron brought out its Smartouch system over a year late. Adagio is way overdo. Sherbourne has had issues bring out an AM/FM tuner. They are not trying to deliver HD over IT.



5) Blame Shifting. They will make any excuse and all attempts to waste your time instead of theirs. They will give you a laundry list of procedures for testing which basically means tearing apart your work just to realize it's their units that have gone haywire.

Not my experience but again, let's look at the book's covers before making our final decisions on this. Netsteams biggest problem has been less than high end dealers and installers, to wit......................


6) Premature firmware update releases. They constantly are "fixing" their experimental system in hopes to get it right...but some updates may leave your system in a worse state then the previous "update"

I suppose you'd prefer that they did not bother to fix their bugs? As you don't code, have no concept of what it takes to write code or the typos that occasionally make their way into code I'll leave this for what it is: a baseless comment from someone who doesn't know which way is up.


7) Substandard amplification. Their digital amps sound terrible...I've heard 20W systems that sound better.

Here you do have a point though my experience is if you use it with the right client--which is about 90% of your possible clients-- you will have no issues.


8) Expensive! What a rip! For what you get...you pay ALOT! WE are their customers. In my estimation whatever you are charging your customers for this stuff is too much if you are not passing it along for cost!

Have any idea what a touch panel based system costs, especially one that does not require programming? Crestron's version of Netstreams touch panel is more expensive and you have to code the GUI.


9)That's all for now...if you are wondering why I'm so jaded...I really wanted to Love this product...I really tried...I spec'd it on a large job and it was a disaster (I made it happen, cause I'm a pro, but nonetheless it was a major PITA and LOTS of drama that NOBODY should have to go through). Choose AMX...or Crestron...it'll make you look like a champ and your customers will actually get what they really want! ;)

Best to choose to be a professional and understand how to install and install a system within its design limitations and strengths. There's a novel idea!

Alan

Beau
08-27-2006, 05:15 PM
So basically you are agree on most of my points but are just being an insulting Troll. It's cool man...whatever makes you feel better about yourself big guy.

AudibleSolutions
08-27-2006, 08:41 PM
Normally when exchanging insults with someone I like to make sure the fight is fair. In your case I'm happy to take advantage. You not only challenge Stanley for the honor of dimmest wit on the public forums but to add insult to your tarnished image you evidently cannot read. The only point I grant is that is that their amps are not the greatest but they more then suffice for 90% of the clients. Other than that no problems. But then I know what I am doing, in terms of networking, programming, design and installation. Do the world a favor and stick to your other job.

I am glad you found a Thesaurus on line. Troll. Very good. You should be proud that you have attained a sixth grade vocabulary, despite a third grade reading comprehension. Now if you can worm your way with hard work and study to the level of mentally challenged you will truly have a reason to be proud. You are the proud holder of the dimmest light on an otherwise enlightened board. Have mercy and slink back to RC or better yet, AVS where you will find more folks with the same level of ability. At least Stanley gets points, intended or not, for humor. There are too many participants here who assume competence in a poster and may not recognize an incompetent fool posting nonsense.

Alan

ejfiii
08-27-2006, 08:53 PM
have no concept of what it takes to write code or the typos that occasionally make their way into code I'll leave this for what it is:

If this is true Alan, then I have to wonder how any of your systems operate at all.

AudibleSolutions
08-27-2006, 09:06 PM
You mean you do not ever proof read? A signal name such as sone_1_imput-1 correctly copied from button to argument will still work. Yes, I understood your humor. Only this dick does need to find an other home.

Alan

sirroundsound
08-27-2006, 10:36 PM
At least I can feel better about getting involved with this product....

At first I was suprised by the slamming post. As you mentioned, Alan, on this web site one expects the opinions to be coming from knowledgeable (sp?) and experienced "pros".

2ndRick
08-27-2006, 10:55 PM
Not that I want to fuel this fire, but I am definitely NOT a fan of this product.

I feel strongly enough about this, that NetStreams is one product (of very few) that I do not get involved with AT ALL at my current employer.

First of all, I have to agree that I hate the wiring topology...

I don't run the speaker wires over to 2 gang boxes in placed in closets or tucked into a joist cavity, I run them to racks where amplifiers actually belong.

I am not against active speakers, in fact I really like them IF they bring a real advantage. Meridian Active InWalls, B&W Casa, and Genelec Active InWalls are great (huge, but great). Even though each of these would require a proprietary wiring scheme, the reason I would consider these is that they house the amplification in metal cans that are fire rated, and these products actually deliver sound quality as good or better than the traditional method.

If you wire for NetStreams to use locally placed "digital" amps, be sure to wire in a backup plan for traditional amplifiers in the rack. If Netstreams were to go under tomorrow (this is by no means a prediction, just a statement), you really only have Pragmatic as the one and only backup solution that could use local amps on a Netstreams-style prewire without retrofitting more cabling.

With a traditional pre-wire, even if ALL of the Linear/Nortek brands went down (Elan, Niles, Speakercraft, Xantech) you would still have Russound, Sonance, ADA, and DOZENS of other products which could be placed on the same prewire without making massive changes.

I think that amplifiers located with the rest of the equipment is definitely a more prudent system design choice. Ask the dealers who got stuck with useless proprietary wiring after changes to the early generations of Bose Built-Invisible (they f&*ked the dealers TWICE), or when the manufacturers simply pulled the plug as was the case with Sony DST and the previously mentioned B&W Casa....

Secondly, I am not a fan of placing ANY electronics into a wall or ceiling cavity without a fire rated can. The argument is that they are "low voltage", "cool running" and "digital".

I had a full time service tech at my old store, and we regularly saw audio electronics (including 12V car audio products) which started on FIRE when they failed. They may be cool running and safe when they are working correctly, but I am not installing ANYTHING like that in a wall or ceiling cavity without a proper METAL enclosure, preferably with a UL listing.

Also, I am NOT an IT guy... If I go onto a site and a source or a zone are not working, I can troubleshoot that very quickly and resolve the issue with tried and true techniques that have served audio contractors well for decades. I don't need to check MAC addresses, Ethernet switch settings, and all of that crap and THEN go on to testing the audio gear.

Support HAS been hit and miss... Darren Adorka (our Regional guy) has been MIA for a week at a time at certain periods. A funny story... the Regional Director for AVAD Central called the President of the company to ask why phone calls from the sales staff weren't being returned... Then within 15 minutes, ALL of the territory salesman (who were in the same meeting) got voice mails from Darren.

Also, I am not a fan of their interface....
I hate their skins, I hate that the buttons cannot be changed or re-located. Why can't I place the lighting button on the first page if I want it there??

I hate that the user has to choose which zone he is in EACH time he uses thew KP (why can't it be set to DEFAULT to a specific room?)

I don't like that it is so tiny... for example, the Escient skin is basically illegible unless you have razor sharp vision.

I don't like that the reaction time to button presses on their system is brutally slow... Music is one thing, but this is unacceptible for lighting, cameras, and HVAC control.

Alan, you have bashed Elan for years because the Via! suffered from these same issues regasrding the fixed interface and the installers/programmers inability to change anything, and yet you pile praise onto this system?? Why??

AND I feel that the SQ is definitely below a low powered MR/MZ receiver system, and more on par with a superstore 50 w/ch receiver through a switcher and VCs. Essentially, a half step above ABus or an all-in-one iPod docking system.

AHEM
08-27-2006, 11:41 PM
Let it never be said that Rick's a company guy.

Excellent and very candid post.

AudibleSolutions
08-27-2006, 11:43 PM
Netsteams has a few issues. Do not use thier 20w amps ever. Their 50w amps are much better but the sound is thin when compared to your AMX distributed audio switcher/multi-channel amp combonation. Netstreams has made a major marketing mistake by marketing its products to less then qualified dealers. Most of their dealers are like this guy, who has one foot out of the industry sell cell phones. These are dealers not used to selling high end products and not always up to the tasks, especially networking of installing an IP system of this caliber. You must use Netstream's gigbit switch and it is certainly expensive when compared with a 69 dollar US DLink/Linksys you can purchase from Best Buy. I'd further argue that this system is best employed on a segmented LAN. I suspect many of Netsteams' dealers have had more than a few issues with some of these network setup items, to say nothing of some of the sales challanges. Touch panels are 1500 MSRP, Speakerpoints are about 1200. If you are selling AMX or Crestron this is no big deal but if your experience is with Musica, Niles, or C4 then you might find this a challanging system to install.

They did have some issues with firmware. I found most of the fixes to be minor but they did have to do with some metadata issues with XM tuner, a few fixes to Request and Escient. Most had to do with additional drivers to widen the number of products with which they could automate. Increasing this list of third party devices has taken more time then some would have preferred. But they are a small company and engineering resources, especially software, are limited. They are more interested in trying to bring their HD over Ehternet solution to market then in adding thrid party integration.

As a module exists to integrate Netstreams into AMX it would make Netstreams a perfect audio system to integrate into a large system. You do not have to add an other distributed audio switcher just to add one or two additional zones of audio. It is simple and cheap to wire. It is relatively easy to install, though like any other system it helps to have experience with its quirks. But no system of its complexity--4 server streams and 2 XM streams is what I've done-- can be up and running as quickly. It's best utilized with digital media. But if you need a local CD or subwoofer it's not hard to add. Their system sounds best with the speakerpoint installed at the speaker but often we choose to install them in closets so service does not require removing the speaker.

When compared to the sound of your AMX distributed audio processor/multi-channel amp Netsteams comes a distant second. But only the most critical listener will complain and then only when installed with a speaker with limited bass response like a Triad Bronze Omni. In time this will be a moot issue as they will have dsp setting to deal with room correction, EQ and driver/amp configuration and the sound of this system will improve. How far away is this? No idea. But their processor has more processing power then Crestron's so they have enough speed to accomplish this. Yes, their tech support is on Central time. Is Sherbourne's not on EST? Parasound's not on PST? Can you reach Bryston 24/7?

Netsteams is made for a large system. It is where it is most economical. Traditional analog sources are those that take longest to integrate. You need to learn IR into the system for this. Sure I sell more traditional Crestron PAD8s but then I am more interested in selling automation systems and I only have a beta module for Netstreams. Only one client has compained about the sound of the system and the problem may very well be his rules, a very large space with very small speakers and insufficient sub-woofers. Is the sound the equal of your favorite reciever or multi-channel amp/distributed audio setup. But no programming and lots of steams available makes it much less expensive then a AMX/4 zone Request plus XM

Alan

AudibleSolutions
08-28-2006, 12:07 AM
Alan, you have bashed Elan for years because the Via! suffered from these same issues regasrding the fixed interface and the installers/programmers inability to change anything, and yet you pile praise onto this system?? Why??

AND I feel that the SQ is definitely below a low powered MR/MZ receiver system, and more on par with a superstore 50 w/ch receiver through a switcher and VCs. Essentially, a half step above ABus or an all-in-one iPod docking system.

Reasonable questions and very valid points.

Because I am who I am I have access to all levels of tech support. And we while there were some issue initially they have proved far fewer of late.

Rick, as long as you remain of the side of evil you can avoid advancing your networking knowledge. Theirs is not really all that complicated and you hardly need Cisco certification to put it on line. But you had better learn to to have separate subnets on the same LAN. But if you are going to install Kaleidescape you will need similiar networking topology. So Rick you will need to get up to speed here, as I suspect you will be delving into K, even if not Netstreams.

You are one hundred percent incorrect about the wiring topology, however. Assuming you have followed Netsteams advice and run CAT5 and 16x4 from the rack through the Keypad up to the speaker you can retrofit any system you want at any time. If you get cute and and only run speakers from the speakerpoint in a closet you may have an issue, depending on how you wish to power the speakerpoint. It is foolish to install a speakerpoint in a centralized rack. I defeats the purpose of the system and exposes the amp's weaknesses. Either accept the typology or don't use it. We do locate the amps in closets as opposed to the back of a speaker. I am less concerned about fire than about service and heat disipation. But I may also work on more solid walls then you do. Still heat is an issue and Netsteams recognizes the problem. But Triad has built very cool subamps so it is possible.

To you point about Netstreams vs Elan I point out the following: Netsterams considers itself an audio system whereas Elan stupidly considers itself to be a control system when it is anything but a control system. So why does Netsteams bother with integration? It responded to its dealers requests. Just because you can do something does not mean it's wise that you do. Unlike many, I don't use a Lutron Keypad to control volume on an audio keypad. I don't use Netsteams as anything other than an audio system so I have no issues with it. Have I installed lighting and Netsteams? Yes. Separate Netsteams audio and Lutron lighting systems. Did I integrate them? No. Netstreams is an audio system for digital media. Use it as intended and it will serve you well. Try to do more with it then it's capable and you will suffer. Just as using Lutron to control audio or some other system is an error that many fall into but I still think wrong. Install your AMX/Crestron for automation and if you have a 20 zone or larger audio system filled with servers and XM go with Netsteams.

Alan

KWest
08-28-2006, 12:26 AM
We've had a demo Digilinx system in our showroom for about a month now. Personal I think it that for the money there are better options out there.
I spec'd a:
10 zone system
9 Touchlinx
1 Keylinx
Speakerlinx 220 amps
3 Medialinx,
1iPort,
1Polk XM tuner
It was 54k CAN that IMO is way to much money for a DA system that will not control anything but itself.

1.) Slow to respond to comands, ie. going from channel 65 on XM to 81 if I press the channel up button rapidly the system will not change channels
2.) No custom drivers for RS-232 control
3.) 12w speakerlinx needs some SQ improvments
4.) Speakerlinx run HOT
5.) If you wire it they we they suggest you have a blank wall plate in the room. IMO blank plate look like poop

If/When they expand the system to allow custom GUI's , and custom RS-232 driver for the medialinx and controlinx I think it will close the gap on Crestron, AMX.

aforlano
08-28-2006, 12:28 AM
I have done several of these systems, including a retro into a non-prewired, 2-story 6000sft house. Works perfectly. I had a few minor issues, and let me tell you something...their tech support guys couldn't be nicer or more accomodating to me. Randy, Cliff, and Rodney are all great guys, and have worked with me late into the evening, given me their PERSONAL cell numbers to call them on a SUNDAY (which I didn't have to do, but the offer was still extended), and have had NO ISSUE RMA'ing 2 defective touch panels.

I've also heard from a little birdie that there's gonna be a major price drop coming soon from them....

As for AVAD selling it...you think a trunk slammer is gonna be able to sell this properly? Hell no. They want to be in-and-out, and don't have the time, patience, or acumen to install this system to it's full potential.

Sell it. There's nothing wrong with it IMHO.

Fred

Beau
08-28-2006, 12:50 AM
Only this dick does need to find an other home.

Alan

Now I'm a dick:confused: Is this because I ask you for a little advice over email and now I'm supposed to kiss your ass? My "thanks" in the reply was not enough for you? You want me to leave because I openly discuss what's on my mind and share my personal experiences candidly with everybody? You don't agree, start the personal attacks and name calling and you want ME to leave?

What do you have invested in Netstreams? Does my candidness threaten you in some way? Why on earth are you using Netstreams if you conceed the amps suck? Surely with your extensive programming knowledge and expertise you could put together a Crestron system that would smoke Netstreams no?

Why don't you grow up and attempt to have an adult discussion without the personal attacks and name calling. Unreal.

Beau
08-28-2006, 12:53 AM
We've had a demo Digilinx system in our showroom for about a month now. Personal I think it that for the money there are better options out there.
I spec'd a:
10 zone system
9 Touchlinx
1 Keylinx
Speakerlinx 220 amps
3 Medialinx,
1iPort,
1Polk XM tuner
It was 54k CAN that IMO is way to much money for a DA system that will not control anything but itself.

1.) Slow to respond to comands, ie. going from channel 65 on XM to 81 if I press the channel up button rapidly the system will not change channels
2.) No custom drivers for RS-232 control
3.) 12w speakerlinx needs some SQ improvments
4.) Speakerlinx run HOT
5.) If you wire it they we they suggest you have a blank wall plate in the room. IMO blank plate look like poop


Thank you. Exactly one of my points...for 48+K USD you can do A LOT more.

AudibleSolutions
08-28-2006, 01:41 AM
Now I'm a dick:confused: Is this because I ask you for a little advice over email and now I'm supposed to kiss your ass? My "thanks" in the reply was not enough for you? You want me to leave because I openly discuss what's on my mind and share my personal experiences candidly with everybody? You don't agree, start the personal attacks and name calling and you want ME to leave?

What do you have invested in Netstreams? Does my candidness threaten you in some way? Why on earth are you using Netstreams if you conceed the amps suck? Surely with your extensive programming knowledge and expertise you could put together a Crestron system that would smoke Netstreams no?

Why don't you grow up and attempt to have an adult discussion without the personal attacks and name calling. Unreal.

I have no idea as to what you are referring or what hallucinatory drug you are under the influence. Not only are you a dick but you are a stupid dick. You don't have to kiss my ass but you sure should get your own head out of your own ass. You make uninformed and foolish arguments. I would vote for all fools and idiots to go the way of dinosaurs and the sooner your voice is lost the better for all so far as I am concerned.

Were you to possess the ability to comprehend what you read you might have read my responses to the other more reasoned and reasonable posts in this thread. Have you? You make but one valid point, about the sound quality of a Netstreams system which you exaggerate. You might take Rick's post about issues with tech support as partial support for an other of your claims. Clearly this experience is not shared by all who have dealt with Netstreams had you bothered to read Fred's post.

What is clear is that you lack the ability to think and have serious issues with any kind of reasoning. Is it my job to police stupidity where I find it? Perhaps not. But it sure does tick me off. And you sure have ticked me off. You make absolutely outrageous claims that belie any experience with serious integration of any familiarity with jobs that require custom programming. You make claims about programming fees being outrageous and yet you demonstrate no comprehension of what a programmer does and on top of it you brag about your ignorance. Those who program do not just code. It often includes serious engineering and ultimately it's falls to him to make the system work and make the client happy. You throw out accusations when you ought to look in the mirror and take stock of the foolish vapidity that passes as thinking and the ignorance that passes as intelligence. I'm not the only one who has concluded you are a moron but I am certainly the one who is pursuing your vapid musings wherever I find them. Perhaps it is the same drug induced haze that has you confusing my sentiments here with some private correspondence we may have had. What does this price of fish have to do with the cost of tea in China? I can promise you that I have no idea as to what you are referring or why you would think I would expect any deference for some question you asked or help I did or did not provide privately. You are not the only one who has asked for my help privately and you are free to ask if I ever asked for or expected any sort of deference in return. This is just one more example of why you need to follow your path back to selling cell phones and leave CI to those with the talent, experience and intelligence you clearly lack. Your conclusion is preposterous. You need to check into rehab or you need to look at yourself. You're the same jerk who made factually incorrect statements about Niles and caught the ire of our future predicting brother. I thought he a tad harsh. I now realize that he was correct and it was I who was slow to catch on to the problem.

Beau
08-28-2006, 01:53 AM
You have some serious issues man. I hope you can work it out. Maybe put down the bottle and get some sleep.

AudibleSolutions
08-28-2006, 01:55 AM
I can assure you that any issues I have will disappear as soon as you do.

Alan

Beau
08-28-2006, 02:04 AM
I can assure you that any issues I have will disappear as soon as you do.

Alan

:rolleyes: I guess that's bad news for you as I've been here and will remain.

It's not my fault you are not capable of having a discussion without resorting to personal attacks and insults.

KWest
08-28-2006, 02:33 AM
Thank you. Exactly one of my points...for 48+K USD you can do A LOT more.

That being said we are still going to carry the line because when they do get some good sounding digital amps, allow 3rd party drivers, custom GUI's and release some new products (Doorlinx, media server) it will be the line to have.

Beau
08-28-2006, 09:42 AM
That being said we are still going to carry the line because when they do get some good sounding digital amps, allow 3rd party drivers, custom GUI's and release some new products (Doorlinx, media server) it will be the line to have.

Netstreams is a product that you should only be using if you are NOT a Crestron or AMX dealer. Otherwise there is no good reason to use the stuff.

If you are a dealer for either of those products...sell them...their solutions are far more robust.

tomciara
08-28-2006, 10:05 AM
As a guy who serviced home electronics to component level since the early 70's, I am sensitive to what heat does to electronics.

We made hay in the 70's on Pioneer receivers that did not heat sink their power supply regulators sufficiently. Resolder overheated joints and it's good to go. We saw Technics receivers that ran blazing hot, and though they worked fine for the average joe out of the box, their lifespan was short.

Heat won't kill your electronics the day you put it in or even any time soon. It will however shorten it's life. Therefore I don't like putting amps in walls or in ceilings, ESPECIALLY in ceilings that happen to be in 140 degree attics.

Alan touched on the heat issue and this is just my angle on it.

aforlano
08-28-2006, 11:38 AM
Heat won't kill your electronics the day you put it in or even any time soon. It will however shorten it's life. Therefore I don't like putting amps in walls or in ceilings, ESPECIALLY in ceilings that happen to be in 140 degree attics.

Alan touched on the heat issue and this is just my angle on it.

I'm sure you already know this, and please don't think I'm trying to imply anything other then the option suggested, but you don't HAVE to install the amps there, it's an OPTION. You could always buy the rack mounts, which will allow you to put 3 amps in a 3-space (I think) slot.

I personally think their product is a great solution for the 'step-between' customer. I am neither an AMX or Crestron dealer (too small a company, no storefront, probably already locked down in my market), so it works for me and the few clients I've sold it to.

My only comment on the 'argument' that's going on in this thread is this:

These forums are not here for your personal namecalling sessions. Many of us use this arena for information gathering and idea sharing. Opinions are like noses and assholes - everyone has them, and nobody wants to hear them. But since the question was ASKED, then I think we as professional ADULTS can offer them without resorting to the debate skills of 8-year-olds on the playground.

If you MUST piss on each other, please do it elsewhere.

I'll climb down from my soapbox now.

Fred

2ndRick
08-28-2006, 11:54 AM
Reasonable questions and very valid points.

Because I am who I am, I have access to all levels of tech support. And we while there were some issue initially they have proved far fewer of late.

Rick, as long as you remain of the side of evil you can avoid advancing your networking knowledge. ...you had better learn to to have separate subnets on the same LAN. But if you are going to install Kaleidescape you will need similiar networking topology. So Rick you will need to get up to speed here, as I suspect you will be delving into K, even if not Netstreams.

The system I am referring to is a small demo system with a dedicated NS 24 port managed switch, 2 SpeakerLinx, 1 TouchLinx, 1 KeyLinx, Aprilaire integration, Lutron Chronos integration, and an Escient Fireball as the audio source.

Even though I didn't setup this network, I am familiar with subnets, having been brought up to speed during the MAX portion of the AMX training I went through last year... As for me delving into Kaleidescape, what have you heard??


We do locate the amps in closets as opposed to the back of a speaker. I am less concerned about fire than about service and heat dissipation. But I may also work on more solid walls then you do.
I guess I don't understand that statement... But then again New Yorkers think that everything is done so much better there ;)

In case you were not aware, Chicago and the various outlying communities have some of the most stringent electrical and building codes in the country...

I am ALWAYS concerned about fire... And poor heat dissipation on an electronic device that is installed into a wall without a UL listed box makes me think about it even more.

Do you install dimmers into the walls without boxes?? If NEC code did not require it, would you still use boxes as a best practice?? Of course you would... Nobody wants to create a situation where a frilly add-on like an audio system caused a house to burn.
What I am saying is that I would just like to see NS make their product box friendly for say a Raco 3.5" box like our favorite single room lighting controller.


To your point about Netstreams vs Elan I point out the following: Netstreams considers itself an audio system whereas Elan stupidly considers itself to be a control system when it is anything but a control system. So why does Netstreams bother with integration? It responded to its dealers requests.

I think that this is false, I think that they were smart enough to know that an audio-only platform would just sink into oblivion just like the hundreds of others out there. The intention withg the Digilinx platform was to use an IP platform to bring music plus "automation lite" to the masses alongside Elan Via!, Russound R-Net, and now Niles ICS.

I think you are splitting hairs here... They are both the same type of company, audio with a side of control...

Elan is a major player in MR/MZ audio and has been since the early days of the category. They were a successful audio company with Z Series and HD Series for many years before the launch of the Via! platform.

Many of us think that this is still their strongest suit, and avoid their control solutions for the same reasons I would avoid using DigiLinx for control...

AudibleSolutions
08-28-2006, 12:28 PM
No problem Fred. The problem comes when an idiot posts misinformation, incorrect information and poorly thought out nonsense as fact. In one sense we are more often then not spewing ad hoc information. There is rarely any statistical sample behind a post. You run into a problem and you post. At some point if you continually run into a problem you may form an opinion but it's still ad hoc as you would really need to know if you had the misfortune to run into all the bad units in a production run. In almost all cases posters here tend to post useful information. Then we have this........integrator who continues to mislead, misinform and contribute nothing but error and foolishness. Opinions are like assholes only this "integrator" cannot remove his head from his hind quarters long enough to look at the sky and determine that it's blue and not brown.

Rick posts that tech support has issues. You and I post that we have not found that to be the case. To make a substantiative argument one needs to make an argument and not merely throw out baseless and specious slander. If you want to debate you must at least make some feeble attempt to employ reason. I am no fan of AVID. I have made that clear and anyone who reads anything I write about AVID can take those opinions with a grain of salt. Despite the bias there is reason and facts behind my assertions. You may accept them or reject them as you like. There is nothing but hot air and ignorance behind this "integrator's " foolishness. He contributes nothing but hot air. You may find it useful but I think that allowing misinformation to go unchallenged is to permit people to make big mistakes. Every time this integrator posts I'll be there to let everyone know that at best he has nothing but misinformation to contribute. The irony is that he is not even a pro any more. by his own admission he sells cell phones. How that permits him to participate on the verified section demonstrates that Gary is the most liberal of moderators. This site is intended for professionals. He is not only unprofessional, ignorant and incapable of reason but he is overly liberal with dispensing his own ignorance as fact.

You can like Netstreams as I do or dislike it as does Rick. You may adduce your reasons behind that conclusion. Here you have someone advising you not to install Netsteams if you sell Crestron or AMX and yet he has not a clue how to install either of those systems. If he doesn't understand that programming those systems costs money whereas Netsteams comes preprogrammed. You may not like the GUI as does Rick but you may find that it suffices for the client it is intended as I believe you do. You have someone whose only purpose is to trash the product and spread ignorance. I do see your point but if you cannot shut this guy up the wrong impression will be conveyed.

Heat may be an issue but it need not be one. Anyone ever touch a Krell class A amp? It sure runs hot, too hot to touch. Yet the product was designed to deal with that heat without component's part's failure. I am not suggesting for a second that the Netsteams' amps are the equivalent to a Krell. Only that one can design a product that will deal with heat without failing. Lutron's Vario tap switches run really hot to the touch. They are rated to withstand 120F temperatures and I have touched some that sure felt as if they were radiating 115 degrees into the air as my hand jumped off of the plate. Yet Lutron has claimed that the unit will function without harm at those temperatures and it has. In the case of Netsteams I don't know. But I have yet to see any failures in over 1.5 years. The product is too new to make any broader comparisons. But a product can very much be designed to withstand the effects of heat.

You sell that system for what it currently is; a high end digital audio system. It is not an automation system although they have made some attempts in permitting it to do some limited automation. As with everything, whether it's a TPMC10, an Adagio or a Netsteams system. Conservative design is advisable. You may certainly push the envelope and attempt to do everything the unit is said to do. And when you run into issues you can blame the manufacturer who made the outlandish claims or you can look at yourself for trying to do something in a client's system that ought to first have been attempted in house.

Alan

Beau
08-28-2006, 08:37 PM
No problem Fred. The problem comes when an idiot posts misinformation, incorrect information and poorly thought out nonsense as fact. In one sense we are more often then not spewing ad hoc information. There is rarely any statistical sample behind a post. You run into a problem and you post. At some point if you continually run into a problem you may form an opinion but it's still ad hoc as you would really need to know if you had the misfortune to run into all the bad units in a production run. In almost all cases posters here tend to post useful information. Then we have this........integrator who continues to mislead, misinform and contribute nothing but error and foolishness. Opinions are like assholes only this "integrator" cannot remove his head from his hind quarters long enough to look at the sky and determine that it's blue and not brown.


You just can't help yourself can you. What a child you are. I feel sorry for the people who have to deal with you on a daily basis.

I have posted no misinformation....just my experiences and opinion about the product. Do what you will with the information...I'm just sharing - everybody is supposed to make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions.

Beau
08-28-2006, 09:35 PM
So...just in case you cannot see through the bull...I thought I'd refute his claims about me posting "misinformation"...I didn't feel like bothering last night...but since Alan can't seem to control himself and insists on keeping posting childish bafoonery....here ya go ;)


I have relatively few problems with their tech support...

Good for you....but you still have had problems. I'm glad that their tech support is not a total disaster...I'm sure I'll be needing to call them in the near future!:rolleyes:

Cliff is the tech that I am specifically referring to. He seemed to be the only one on staff in the beginning. He's ok initially...but the southern politeness quickly wears away when he is challenged.

Mabye some of the other new techs are better...specifically he and I just did not see eye to eye when I challenged him about the "wizard" and how it did not setup the system properly...in fact...somebody else with more knowledge than him had to walk us through extensive "secret" settings to get the system semi-stable...not options they teach you in training or have any other resource to find out on your own.

Their product documentation might as well be non-existent.



I'd prefer it was not distributed from AVID but I also get Fujitsu and Sharp out of Avid. Complaining about this too, are you?

Not really...I have accounts with Electrograph, Cinelight, Activelight, etc. etc. etc. and sideways arrangements to get whatever I need at a moments notice so I can satisfy my clients requirements in a timely manner. I hardly rely on AVAD for the survival of my business. If I did...I'd be screwed! Sometimes they are good and sometimes not...dealing with AVAD is a crapshoot.



For years, AMX did the same. Crestron functions on EST--until recently. If you are on PST then you get up early. Stock exchange operates on EST so a west coast investor is in his office at 6:30 PST.

Totally illogical argument. Don't you know the world the world should revolve around California :cool: You need to play to your market...I'm guessing CA represents a major percentage of their sales.



...their wiring is perfectly typical for.............................IT! Gee, it's touch to retro-fit this system into an existing wiring scheme? NOT!!!! Most homes have structured wiring in place for you to steal a CAT 5. How many reto-fit jobs have wires in place to support touch panels? Think it might be possible to drop a 16x4 from the attic or up from the basement to power the touch panel and find a network wire in the attic to get data?

Typical for IT? Are we doing IT or are we doing an audio system?

These homes you speak of with "structured wiring" in place typically have provisions for some sort of distributed audio. Why try to change the way this works...oh ya...because they think it's genius to have the amps close to the speakers so as to avoid interference in the long runs of speaker wire...and even better to "hide" the amps in the hottest, insulated and enclosed spaces:confused: And....how many times have you finished a system only to find that there is nasty inteference in the speaker wire? NONE.



Nonsense. There really is nothing experimental about Netstreams. It is using Ethernet protocols is all. But as there are many wiring topologies in the field that have CAT5 and speaker wiring in a keypad location it's not all that novel. How long has steaming audio been around? At least 5 years and quite possibly longer. I installed video conferencing systems using a CODEC 10 years ago. They solved the problem of latency which Microsoft tried and could not.

hahahahaha...that's rich. Solved the problem of latency...hahahahah...have you ever used a DigiLinx? It's the slowest POS I've ever touched. They just make it "seem" like they have solved that problem by delaying the visual cues.

Not experimental? Is that why they have 37 or so patents on their "breakthrough" technology...i.e. newly developed/untested/experimental.



Netsteams is hardly unusual in this respect. Crestron brought out its Smartouch system over a year late. Adagio is way overdo. Sherbourne has had issues bring out an AM/FM tuner. They are not trying to deliver HD over IT.

Another illogical assertion. So business as usual...lies and empty promises are acceptable? Sorry...not to me...just tell me it's going to be a while...don't waste my time. I'd prefer honesty so I can make the decisions I need to.



Not my experience...

Either the product works or does not...I have nothing to do with it....0ver 30% of the product they shipped had funny glitches that they could not answer to or fix and had to be exchanged for functional merchandise.



I suppose you'd prefer that they did not bother to fix their bugs? As you don't code, have no concept of what it takes to write code or the typos that occasionally make their way into code I'll leave this for what it is: a baseless comment from someone who doesn't know which way is up.

Hardly an acceptable excuse. When you put product on the market it is supposed to be functional and ready for sale/installation. Totally unacceptable. From them or ANY other company. What am I supposed to tell my customers? "Well the hardware is in...sorry you can't listen to music yet...they haven't really figured out how to make it work yet" YA RIGHT!



Here you do have a point though my experience is if you use it with the right client...

All my clients are high end...and are treated as such even if they are not the most wealthy people. The majority of my jobs are consistently over $150K.

When a client spends THOUSANDS of dollars for an "audio" system...I don't care who they are...if I do it...it's going to sound good. That is the entire point...not just having a bunch of "technology" in the walls. It's an AUDIO system...it irks me that so many people loose touch of that and focus on features, widgets and doodads.



Have any idea what a touch panel based system costs, especially one that does not require programming? Crestron's version of Netstreams touch panel is more expensive and you have to code the GUI.

On "larger" systems that ratio changes as the GUI is repeatable and the processing is necessary with 1 TS or 10 TS. The topic is "Netstreams & Large Homes." - The answer is - It IS NOT the proper solution for larger systems. It is not robust enough to handle the requirements of today's larger homes.



Best to choose to be a professional and understand how to install and install a system within its design limitations and strengths. There's a novel idea!
Alan

That it is...a novel idea. I have another novel idea. How about not making functionality promises when the product is not capable of actually handling it. It's easy to spec a system within it's design limitations...when the manufacturer is candid about it's capabilities and functionality.

See how much better and usefull this information is without the snide remarks and childish slander.

2ndRick
08-28-2006, 10:23 PM
Rick posts that tech support has issues. You and I post that we have not found that to be the case.
I will clarify that. I said that support can be an issue, and in my case ot was the support of the other side of the company (sales and marketing) that has been lacking. If you and Fred have had good luck with the tech support, then I am glad to hear it as I am ALWAYS glad to hear of a compoany standing behind their products.

However, I judge support across the board. Regardless of your personal view of salesmen (which we all know by now..), the Regional Sales Rep returning calls about new product availability, certification verification (eligibility to order) shipping, and demo program updates are just as important to our business (collectively speaking of integrators) as the tech guys answering phone calls.


Heat may be an issue but it need not be one. Anyone ever touch a Krell class A amp? It sure runs hot, too hot to touch. Yet the product was designed to deal with that heat without component's part's failure. I am not suggesting for a second that the Netsteams' amps are the equivalent to a Krell. Only that one can design a product that will deal with heat without failing. Lutron's Vario tap switches run really hot to the touch. They are rated to withstand 120F temperatures and I have touched some that sure felt as if they were radiating 115 degrees into the air as my hand jumped off of the plate. Yet Lutron has claimed that the unit will function without harm at those temperatures and it has. In the case of Netsteams I don't know. But I have yet to see any failures in over 1.5 years. The product is too new to make any broader comparisons. But a product can very much be designed to withstand the effects of heat.
I agreee about audio equipment running hot... I could care less whether or not a unit runs hot.... as long as the form factor doesn't prevent me from placing it into a rack or other appropriate location where I can manage the heat through passive and active thermal management with fans, vents, sensors, etc.

My argument was that NS is advising installers to place these devices into P rings basically leaving them exposed to the inside of a wall cavity.
Building codes put a lot of effort into ensuring that homes have adequate protection against fire getting into the walls. We have to use proper class x wallboard, fire blocks in cavities over a certain height, fire rated caulking around plumbing and wiring, IC rated lighting fixtures, NEC rated electrical boxes, etc... and then us a/v guys shove an amplifier in the wall with no enclosure?? THAT will never make sense to me.

If these companies want to continue with the locally placed amplifiers, then I would like to see it in the size/shape of a Lutron Power Booster where it installs into a 2 gang box and the entire faceplate is essentially a heatsink to dissipate that heat off into the room and keep the heat out of the walls.

With the IW solution for the current SpeakerLinx module, the IW plate is in contact with a very small section of the back of the module, away from the cooling fins. Assuming that some of the heat might travel through the screws, the little clips and maybe a couple of other areas where contact is made, any dissipation of that little bit of inefficiently transferred heat that could have happened is negated by the plastic cover... which is ironically molded to appear like a finned heatsink!!

After hearing that NS recommends SIX inches of open space around each unit in the wall, I have to believe that these things will NOT survive if they were to be installed into enclosed RACO style metal boxes...

NS openly recommends that the installers use open back rings to allow the heat to dissipate, I just don't believe that it is dissipating into the wall cavity where so many other residential and commercial building codes are in place to prevent heat buildup.

Oh, and have I said that I think that they are too slow to react?? I played with the demo setup again today and I kept hitting buttons twice thinking that maybe I didn't press the panel hard enough or in the exact correct spot (no cracks about fat fingers!). Anyway, it was just that the system is so slow to react...

Maybe we could go back in and confirm that the switch has been properly configured, but I really don't think that this is the issue. I hate NS for the same reason I hated X-10, and still hate most PLC based lighting.

Press-n-pray... or at best press-n-wait.

2ndRick
08-28-2006, 10:37 PM
Let it never be said that Rick's a company guy.

Excellent and very candid post.
Thanks Steve... I am sure that you guys know that I call 'em like I see 'em.

My integrity is more important to me than keeping up appearances to some assumed salesman's BS standard of mish-mosh double talk. I feel that being more candid has served me well in terms of selling products, because when I say that I really like something, that the person on the other end of the phone knows that there are valid reasons that will most likely also be important to them, and it's not just because there is a spiff or a sales contest or something.

When I come across a product that I really like (regardless of manufacturer or distributor affiliation), I will be quick to discuss what led me to reach that position.

Case in point, I have been known to advocate the following companies:
- Triad (which is very selectively sold through our distribution in parts of our region)
- Stewart (which I do NOT sell at all)
- Liberty compression connectors (which I do NOT sell at all)
- RTI (which I do sell)
- AutoPatch (which I do NOT sell at all)
- Lutron HWI (which I do NOT sell at all)
- Meridian (which I do NOT sell at all)
- JVC Pro D-ILA & HD-ILA (which I do sell)
- Sony video (which I do not sell, but have always had great luck with)
- Audio Request (which I do NOT sell)

If something has flaws, I may still recommend it depending on the application, but if I know of any caveats you should be aware of, you will know!!

If something that my employer sells has obvious fatal flaws, I may or may not openly bash that product or manufacturer, but I will be sure to CLEARLY state that I do not recommend it....

Wait until you hear my view on Screen Goo!!

sirroundsound
08-28-2006, 11:14 PM
Doesn't press and wait rely on the equipment being controlled too?
I don't deal with Escient, but was fixing a system with it and an Elan system.
I found that I had to wait before I heard anything from it after a button press on the Elan keypads. I was tempted to push buttons again, and again, But being used to trouble shooting systems, I checked to see that the equipment did respond before I curse the control system. As for Lutron, I have only worked with Homeworks for the last 10years, never actually installed a Chronos, so I can't comment on how it reacts to other control systems.

As for some of the other comments by others -

Tech support, some companies have great tech support, usually they are the ones you need it the least (Lutron) and others are absolutly useless.
If NS falls somewhere in between, and their tech's know more than I do, thats already a +.


As for what time they operate in, get over yourself, as long as they are in this hemisphere you will at some point be able to talk to someone.

IT or Audio, welcome to the new industry, better get used to IT.

It's not genius to put amps as close to speakers as you can, audiophiles have known this and been doing it for as long as their has been high end audio. This is nothing new, look at Linn.

As for audio quality, if a client wants a critical listening enviroment, he isn't going to ask for in wall or ceiling speakers running off some multi-channel amp.

Sounds like I have a couple of things to experiment with, and I know our first couple of projects with this product will be condos, I am pretty confident all will go well.

It's been entertaining reading, with some information thrown in for good measure, thanks.

sirroundsound
08-28-2006, 11:17 PM
Screen goooooo, there is another post I will want to see, our experience didn't save anyone any money that's for sure.....

Beau
08-28-2006, 11:18 PM
Wait until you hear my view on Screen Goo!!

Well...let's hear it! I have it spec'd for a billiard room where a screen is not an option because of stray pool cue's. No drop down option available either due to construction...and no room for a TV.

How about a quickie brief review ;)

Maybe let's start a new thread about it.

AudibleSolutions
08-28-2006, 11:48 PM
After hearing that NS recommends SIX inches of open space around each unit in the wall, I have to believe that these things will NOT survive if they were to be installed into enclosed RACO style metal boxes...

NS openly recommends that the installers use open back rings to allow the heat to dissipate, I just don't believe that it is dissipating into the wall cavity where so many other residential and commercial building codes are in place to prevent heat buildup.

I may need to go back to some of my backroom sources and discuss this with them. I can see no reason that a metal gang box (RACO style) ought not to act as a heat sink. Lutron uses the room to disipate heat, not the electrical box and if you attempt to install this at the speaker there will even be less room for air, unless the speaker magnet is to be used to vent heat into the enviorment.

I'd only point out that the amplifiers are UL listed which ought to give one some reason to believe that installing them as the manufacturer has recomended ought not lead one to conclude that one is contributing to increasing the risk of fire in the installation.


Oh, and have I said that I think that they are too slow to react?? I played with the demo setup again today and I kept hitting buttons twice thinking that maybe I didn't press the panel hard enough or in the exact correct spot (no cracks about fat fingers!). Anyway, it was just that the system is so slow to react...

Maybe we could go back in and confirm that the switch has been properly configured, but I really don't think that this is the issue. I hate NS for the same reason I hated X-10, and still hate most PLC based lighting.

Press-n-pray... or at best press-n-wait.

I mentioned your experience to one of the largest Netsteams dealers in the nation for whom I occasionally program. He is bothered by the sound of the system then much more than I but he also still believes in sound quality; a remnent of his still being a top bass player. He has not seen the kind of lagging response you are reporting systems on which to base that statement. I have not seen it either but my sample is not nearly as broad so my conclusions are more in doubt. I suspect you may have a few networking issues to resolve or you have defective gear.

However, I wish to point out that Pat's original question was in using Netsteams in large installations. Given the fact that Netsteams wrote a module to interface into AMX and the fact that you don't need to add audio matrix contrllers as you add zones and you have an interesting system. You also don't need to use the most expensive server in the SKU as Netsteams will create the streams from a single hard drive. Use the AMX panels and the system ceases to have as many disadvantages. Integration is not an issue. The expense of the system is largely due to the touch panel and touch panel limitations are no longer an issue when you are using AMX panels. Look there are any number of audio systems that now need to resort to touch panels for audio control that do not play well as integration pieces. It is an expensive system. So was Kaleidescape and for that matter Request. Startup companies need to recover their R&D costs. I'll promise you this. With Netsteams wiring you are not going to have to deal with the sort of problem Ed has posted about with respect to off air bleeding into speaker lines.

Alan

Matt
08-28-2006, 11:54 PM
Alan, have I ever been harsh when it wasn't waranted? I, not unlike you, lost my patience with Beau (JBJ systems) over his lack of control over his jaw. Opinions are great, but one has to keep in mind that if your opinion is based upon misinformation, lack of research, or just plain stupidity, then you are gong to be called out by someone in this crowd. If you are going to be insanely stupid, have the balls to admit it and move on. I am stupid on a regular basis, however, I find that this quality makes women feel bad for me and want to rub the mushroom to see what their fortune may be.... then again, that part may just be the dream I had last night.

Beau
08-29-2006, 12:37 AM
Alan, have I ever been harsh when it wasn't waranted? I, not unlike you, lost my patience with Beau (JBJ systems) over his lack of control over his jaw.

And why should I control my jaw...or fingers rather? I'm trying to perform a community service here...seems you and Alan don't get it. Our industry is dependent on referrals...if you want to experiment with unstable, experimental and overpriced product in your clients home you might as well kiss those referrals goodbye.



Opinions are great, but one has to keep in mind that if your opinion is based upon misinformation, lack of research, or just plain stupidity, then you are gong to be called out by someone in this crowd.

What misinformation specifically do you believe I have spewed?

Lack of research? How about been there done that. Please enlighten me as to what "research" you believe I overlooked.

Stupid is as stupid does...you go right ahead and sell that stuff...just don't expect any sympathy when your $#!T goes haywire. How about zones resetting and restarting with a full blast test tone at random intervals? I'm sure your client will appreciate that at 3am :rolleyes:

Matt
08-29-2006, 01:03 AM
I do not sell netstreams at this time, I was refering to the comment Alan made about me laying you out on the floor in the niles thread on RC. You spoke like you knew what you were talking about when you didn't. I believe it was norm who set you straight and you didn't even acknowledge the fact that you were wrong.

Matt
08-29-2006, 01:07 AM
I'm trying to perform a community service here

Thats what Boy George said.

Matt
08-29-2006, 01:11 AM
What misinformation specifically do you believe I have spewed?



Quote from remote central

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-custom/thread.cgi?9460,1
I can't believe Niles has totally let the automated remote market just slip away. They had a lock on that $#!T when the Intellicontrol came out...not it's a disco POS. WTF is up with that company? They have their heads up their asses...they have also dropped the ball on the multizone market as well...so sad...their amps are pretty good and the intellicontrol worked so well - it's just a big disco POS now though.

Beau
08-29-2006, 01:12 AM
I do not sell netstreams at this time, I was refering to the comment Alan made about me laying you out on the floor in the niles thread on RC. You spoke like you knew what you were talking about when you didn't. I believe it was norm who set you straight and you didn't even acknowledge the fact that you were wrong.

I suppose you did not understand my question on remote central then. I am aware of the ICS...actually saw it at CEDIA in Indy last year. MY question was whether or not there was a new replacement for the Intellicontrol. I was not very clear, but that is what I meant. I didn't pay much attention the the ICS at cedia but it does look very cool. Are they trying to create a new brand or something?

Beau
08-29-2006, 01:17 AM
Quote from remote central

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-custom/thread.cgi?9460,1
I can't believe Niles has totally let the automated remote market just slip away. They had a lock on that $#!T when the Intellicontrol came out...not it's a disco POS. WTF is up with that company? They have their heads up their asses...they have also dropped the ball on the multizone market as well...so sad...their amps are pretty good and the intellicontrol worked so well - it's just a big disco POS now though.

OK..it was clear...my bad. Read it again. There is no current replacement for the Intellicontrol! Right? Yes or no?

Yes the ICS is JUST barely coming out...it looks VERY cool and I'm very excited about it...I just don't understand how they have had that stupid brick for so long whilst everybody else is running away with the remote control market. They totally opened the door for companies like RTI.

Matt
08-29-2006, 01:18 AM
I will take this up with you later, right now, my wife needs servicing.

Beau
08-29-2006, 01:27 AM
I will take this up with you later, right now, my wife needs servicing.

That's the spirit! I'd much rather be getting laid than discussing electronics on the internet with strangers myself...wonder if there are any good new whores on craigslist.........

2ndRick
08-29-2006, 09:22 AM
Quote from remote central

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-custom/thread.cgi?9460,1
WTF is up with that company? They have their heads up their asses...they have also dropped the ball on the multizone market as well...so sad...
This was the part that I thought made their point...

Also, that you used your A*&D online price guide to see of they had anything new instead of going to the actual Niles site, or browsing threads here or at RC, or checking out Resi Systems or CE Pro...

Meaning that you based you opinion of Niles on very little current information, and without the common knowledge that Niles has direct-only products. For future reference, the ICS mr/mz systems, the AT speaker line, and Intellicontrol controllers are not available through A*&D distribution.

whdigital
08-29-2006, 10:00 AM
I had a dream that IP was started with a vision of true professionals interacting with a community goal of avoiding the bullshit tone that litters places like AVS-Forums. The dream was good - it had a very real feel; it was lasting the whole night long - and then I woke up to reading this thread...

Cut the crap and agree to disagree..... The buzz in here is making my worst ground loop hum experience seem like a pleasant melody!

AudibleSolutions
08-29-2006, 10:13 AM
The problem is that we have someone who is not a professional participating. There is nothing to agree to disagree about. There has been quite a bit of useful information exchanged save by one party. It is simply our misfortune that we will need to suffer this fool until he either goes away or Gary calls time.s As this is public not even Gary can save us from the insufferable "integrator," unless he suddenly discovers mercy. We all make errors of fact on occasion but it's only an occasional lapse. Why must there always be a snake who crawls into paradise to ruin it for the rest of us. If only he would eat an apple.

Alan

Beau
08-30-2006, 03:06 AM
The problem is that we have someone who is not a professional participating. There is nothing to agree to disagree about. There has been quite a bit of useful information exchanged save by one party. It is simply our misfortune that we will need to suffer this fool until he either goes away or Gary calls time.s As this is public not even Gary can save us from the insufferable "integrator," unless he suddenly discovers mercy. We all make errors of fact on occasion but it's only an occasional lapse. Why must there always be a snake who crawls into paradise to ruin it for the rest of us. If only he would eat an apple.

Alan

Not a pro eh? I suppose that's why I just closed a $250K contract last week and have been working on only high end commercial & ultra high end residential jobs for the past decade. Ya...I have no idea what I'm doing. :rolleyes:

Beau
08-30-2006, 03:12 AM
This was the part that I thought made their point...

Also, that you used your A*&D online price guide to see of they had anything new instead of going to the actual Niles site, or browsing threads here or at RC, or checking out Resi Systems or CE Pro...

Meaning that you based you opinion of Niles on very little current information, and without the common knowledge that Niles has direct-only products. For future reference, the ICS mr/mz systems, the AT speaker line, and Intellicontrol controllers are not available through A*&D distribution.

Ya...I guess thats just my laziness showing through. I gave up on Niles about 5 years ago as they weren't developing anything new or interesting. I used to use it exclusively and liked it very much but have not been paying close attention to it recently. I had NO idea that they had direct only product. When I used them it was not that way...in fact...I remember everything being sold at The Good Guys.

I'm glad they are coming around and FINALLY releasing new goodies onto the market. I actually signed up for the Niles ICS class/demo whatever it was at CEDIA last year but was unable to attend due to a scheduling conflict....I suppose after that I just forgot about it. I'll have to take a closer look.

Beau
08-30-2006, 03:13 AM
I had a dream that IP was started with a vision of true professionals interacting with a community goal of avoiding the bullshit tone that litters places like AVS-Forums. The dream was good - it had a very real feel; it was lasting the whole night long - and then I woke up to reading this thread...

Cut the crap and agree to disagree..... The buzz in here is making my worst ground loop hum experience seem like a pleasant melody!

Here here +1

AudibleSolutions
08-30-2006, 07:07 AM
Not a pro eh? I suppose that's why I just closed a $250K contract last week and have been working on only high end commercial & ultra high end residential jobs for the past decade. Ya...I have no idea what I'm doing. :rolleyes:

My last reasonse to you ever. The infamous Kangis has pointed out the sad facts of this industry is lots of incompetants are capable of pursuading clients to fork over large checks. They are, however, unable to fulfill their promises or bring off the installation. They will try to integrate into a security system that cannot. They will hook up a pair of spakers to a single channel on an Elan digital amp. They will not have an "as built" diagram. I could go on. But an under powered brain would hardly get it. As far as I am concerned you do not exist. Hopefully others will follow me and ignore you.

Alan

flcusat
08-30-2006, 07:42 AM
Not a pro eh? I suppose that's why I just closed a $250K contract last week and have been working on only high end commercial & ultra high end residential jobs for the past decade. Ya...I have no idea what I'm doing. :rolleyes:

Wait a minute. You've been working on high end comercial & ultra high end residentials and you don't use neither AMX or Crestron? Something doesn't sound right here.

Beau
08-31-2006, 01:11 AM
Wait a minute. You've been working on high end comercial & ultra high end residentials and you don't use neither AMX or Crestron? Something doesn't sound right here.

With www.jbjsystems.com (http://www.jbjsystems.com) we use Crestron and with the new firm I"m working with we use AMX.

Beau
08-31-2006, 01:13 AM
My last reasonse to you ever. The infamous Kangis has pointed out the sad facts of this industry is lots of incompetants are capable of pursuading clients to fork over large checks. They are, however, unable to fulfill their promises or bring off the installation. They will try to integrate into a security system that cannot. They will hook up a pair of spakers to a single channel on an Elan digital amp. They will not have an "as built" diagram. I could go on. But an under powered brain would hardly get it. As far as I am concerned you do not exist. Hopefully others will follow me and ignore you.
Alan

You are so rediculous. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, what I have acomplished or anything about me for that matter to be making such comments. You are just a sad angry man.

flcusat
08-31-2006, 01:20 AM
With www.jbjsystems.com (http://www.jbjsystems.com) we use Crestron and with the new firm I"m working with we use AMX.

But on the ebay thread you said:

No...I do not do any Crestron programming for my company. Most systems are on the smaller scale.

Aren't you contradicting yourself when you said that most of your jobs are high end commercial and ultra high end residential in one thread and in the other one you said that most of your systems are on the smaller scale?

Beau
08-31-2006, 01:21 AM
But on the ebay thread you said:

Ya...we are Crestron dealers...sell and install the gear but sub out the programming.

EDIT:

I suppose I should clarify...most of our "automation" systems have been on the smaller scale. Typically the majority of the $$$ is spend on a few select rooms vs. blowing the majority of the budget on gagetry.

Fact is...most HVAC systems do their jobs w/o need for additional control...same can be said for security...lighting control is typically Vantage (on my jobs), which works very well, and does not typically need additional control...depending on the system and users the keypads that are available from the distributed audio manufacturers are often adequate...surveillance today is often viewed on a computer via DVR so no automation required there often times...point is...IMO "ultra high end" does not automatically = automation system. It's purely a luxury and not everybody wants it or needs it.

flyingmachine
10-10-2006, 02:27 PM
I just finished reading through this thread and it holds my interest greatly. I amd a new CI company and installed a Digilinx setup in my new home that we just finished building. I have not proposed Digilinx out for any jobs yet, but so far, have been pretty satisfied as to what it has to offer.

I have XM tuner, fireball and iport integrated. I am very happy with the Polk XM Tuner, as well as the iPort integration. Still undecided if I am happy or not with the Fireball yet.

I am definitely a CI newbie and could get super excited about this for my offerings to clients, but as far as jumping in and going gung-ho to sell this, I want to make sure its going to be robust and I understand it completely.

Beau
10-13-2006, 02:25 AM
I think it'll get to where it needs to be eventually but I personally got burned as I jumped on it when it first came out.

I don't like the way the amps sound...I don't like their reccomended wiring topology...and my personal experience with product failing after a few days was also a major headache.

S3-Inc
02-19-2007, 11:05 PM
Hey Beau,

Did you encounter the wonderful "media server menu error"?

flyingmachine
02-20-2007, 02:08 AM
Hey Beau,

Did you encounter the wonderful "media server menu error"?

That's a great feature.

S3-Inc
02-20-2007, 10:40 PM
Patrick,

I was very gung ho on this two years ago. I sold a nice sized job with Netstreams. We had some back order issues, but after about 90 days, we had all the product.

We did the Polk Xm Tuner, Escient E2160 and some Panasonic IP Camera's, and send the audio from a cable box through the system ( we also did a audio port for the Master Bath for the LCD TV Audio).

Everything seems robust except for the communication between the Escient and the Digilinx. I have had the Media Server Menu issue for almost two years now. I've been passed between Netstreams and Escient for support on this with no resolution. Luckily the client is very laid back and understanding.

It makes me a little hesitant to do a big job with this again. The only thing I would like to change is the media server. I would look into request, or using the Netstreams Streaming Music Manager to access files on a Media Server.

The sound quality is pretty good, we did Niles CM6PR'S and they sound good (and they have very high ceilings).

That's my .02 worth.

jeff

2ndRick
02-25-2007, 02:55 PM
Everything seems robust except for the communication between the Escient and the Digilinx. I have had the Media Server Menu issue for almost two years now. I've been passed between Netstreams and Escient for support on this with no resolution.
Without assigning blame, I will say that the Elan module for Fireball works flawlessly, the AMX module for the Fireball works flawlessly, and the Crestron module for the Fireball works flawlessly...

Hopefully, this clarifies some things...

Theaterworks
02-25-2007, 03:57 PM
Without assigning blame, I will say that the Elan module for Fireball works flawlessly, the AMX module for the Fireball works flawlessly, and the Crestron module for the Fireball works flawlessly...

Hopefully, this clarifies some things...

Your byline, and my GE Smart experiences, tells me volumes. Is Wilbur Sitze part of the Netstreams team? He was with GE Smart, and the longest suffering tech support guy you would ever feel privileged to know. A former Apollo command module rocket engineer; no kidding. A rocket scientist could not make GE Smart go...

flyingmachine
02-26-2007, 09:46 AM
Without assigning blame, I will say that the Elan module for Fireball works flawlessly, the AMX module for the Fireball works flawlessly, and the Crestron module for the Fireball works flawlessly...

Hopefully, this clarifies some things...

Reply from Netstreams tech over at the NS forums regarding the media server error problem...


What did our tech support suggest? You say that the FireBall is 2 feet from the switch, how long is your patch cable? Standards dictate a minimum of 2.5 meters between 100Mb/s devices.

ssfx
07-07-2008, 05:50 PM
Looks like its been a while since this issue was visited. I was playing with the digilinx demo and it looked pretty cool.

I was wondering if these negative opinions of digilinx have changed over the past couple years...

Im still playing with the idea of using the line.

-Chris

Buzz Goddard
07-08-2008, 01:01 PM
I'm sure you'll be able to find lots of opinions, both pro and con. This is the Internet after all:rolleyes:

NetStreams business continues to grow dramatically, year upon year. Installs range from 2-3 zones to well over 100 zones (one of the cool things about the system is the very flexible scalability). We sell in over 45 countries.
We have licensed our technologies to Naim Audio, Polk Audio, Sonance, Triad and more to be announced at CEDIA. Expo this year will be our 7th. No, we're not perfect and it is not for everyone, but there are a lot of very happy integrators and owners out there so we must be doing a bunch of things right.
Check out the IP Video gear (uncompressed hi-def, multi-channel audio and complete 2-way control all on one CAT5e) and the new IP Speaker integration offerings (like the SL254 for biamping) as well as the new high end NaimNet offerings that are StreamNet enabled.