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OEX
06-19-2011, 08:08 PM
Do they really need to suck so bad?

My 2nd one just died at my house. This will be the 3rd in 3 years.

F U Jandy:)

Greg_C
06-20-2011, 08:21 AM
Lightning strikes could be the reason. You may be lucky, and it is sacrificing itself instead of a processor.
OTOH, maybe Snookie is having a party in the pool when you're not home, and the guidos are screwing with you! :p

AudibleSolutions
06-20-2011, 08:56 AM
They are not great but they also contain IC with tiny wires that are susceptible to small surges. How are you protecting the unit from surges? Both RS-485 and RS-232 should be surge protected to ensure the life of the interface but also the equipment connected to it. Even then, they'll fail. Outdoor wiring will cause all manor of havoc with a low voltage device.

Alan

jberger
06-20-2011, 10:11 AM
As luck would have it, I need to order one of these this week.
Any idea where to pick it up at a decent price?

Our local Jandy folks are dumb as a post, even with the part number they are having a hard time finding it in the price book.

smcnally
06-20-2011, 12:39 PM
Do they really need to suck so bad?

My 2nd one just died at my house. This will be the 3rd in 3 years.

F U Jandy:)

I've seen them last a long ass time in many houses. You need to make sure you have an opto-isolator between the pool side of things and the RS-232 device. If you don't, then any lightning hit near your property can easily cook it and anything connected to it. It isn't that the device sucks...it's more that you have an electronic device that is pretty much out in the open for electrical storms to destroy.

OEX
06-20-2011, 05:07 PM
I have surge protection on the hi volt at the jandy

i have surge protection at both ends of the low voltage cable

They just suck

smcnally
06-20-2011, 05:13 PM
I have surge protection on the hi volt at the jandy

i have surge protection at both ends of the low voltage cable

They just suck

There's a difference between surge protection and lightning protection. A standard RS-232/485 "surge protector" won't do squat for protecting that interface during a nearby strike. You need an optical isolator for protection on the interface box and lightning protection at the pool end.

def90
06-20-2011, 09:01 PM
As luck would have it, I need to order one of these this week.
Any idea where to pick it up at a decent price?

Our local Jandy folks are dumb as a post, even with the part number they are having a hard time finding it in the price book.

Worthington Distribution has them I believe.. a decent price is subjective though..

def90
06-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Surge is definitely needed on these, I use optical isolators when I have any say in the matter..

Robert
06-21-2011, 08:26 AM
The part that comes with the Jandy marked isolator is just three wires connecting one side to the other, I use the 9SP0P2 from here (http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=1&TrailType=Sub&Trail=19). My rule has always been to optically isolate if it leaves the rack.

AudibleSolutions
06-21-2011, 08:49 AM
Are optical isolators the correct part? I had thought these were to be used to prevent damage to the unit from differences in electrical potential between controller and source. These were isolation transformers rather than surge protectors. Yet two have posted they use optical isolators with these units. Do optical isolators provide surge protection or do they act as devices that prevent ground loops?

AudibleSolutions
06-21-2011, 09:14 AM
Optical isolation protects your devices from transient surges and ground loops on your data line. Model 485OPDR repeater adds 4,000 feet (1.2 km) and another 32 nodes to an RS-485 data circuit.
http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?familyid=12

IEEE 1000-4-5: 1995 and IEEE C62.41-1991 are the recognized standards for top quality surge protectors. B&B Electronics’ heavy duty units meet these specifications with three stage protection for maximum safety: a gas discharge tube feeds to a series resistor and a TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressor) for each supported line.
Tough metal panel mount cases protect models 232HESP, 422HESP and 485HESP. HESP4DR provides the same surge protection in a molded DIN Rail mount case. All have #10 ground screws which must be connected to a solid ground.

Three stages of protection on every data line
http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=38&TrailType=Sub&Trail=94



I guess what I'm asking is if what I had thought to be true, that opto-isolators where for stray voltages you needed a 232 surge protector for real surge protection.

metrognomicon
06-21-2011, 09:43 AM
Opto isolation covers you for everything -- "surge" protection isn't enough and it's no more expensive to do opto. The B&B stuff is good -- our standard is 9POP4 for RS-232.

bradodegard
06-21-2011, 11:00 AM
Since an Opto Isolator breaks the physical copper path between the two devices, it prevents voltages from moving between the devices (save the signal that is converted to light and then back).

I too would consider the OptoIso to be the gold standard. If I were doing a job in an area of high danger for storm damage - I might consider installing a standard RS-232 surge in conjunction with the isolator - I'm a fan of tiered protection with better quality protection the closer you get to the high dollar devices.

Brad

jberger
06-21-2011, 03:08 PM
Anyone tried one of these instead of the Jandy unit?

http://www.bb-elec.com/product.asp?sku=4WSD9OTB

It appears to perform as an isolator AND protocol converter for the 485 bus to 232

Robert
06-21-2011, 06:14 PM
Anyone tried one of these instead of the Jandy unit?

http://www.bb-elec.com/product.asp?sku=4WSD9OTB

It appears to perform as an isolator AND protocol converter for the 485 bus to 232

I have used these for April Air thermostats and they work. B&B is a great source for this kind of thing.

TedW
06-23-2011, 12:30 PM
The part that comes with the Jandy marked isolator is just three wires connecting one side to the other, I use the 9SP0P2 from here (http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=1&TrailType=Sub&Trail=19). My rule has always been to optically isolate if it leaves the rack.

Are you #@$#$% kidding me? I asked Jandy specifically about this and they said the provided interface was full opt-iso!

I seem to have my 2nd dead unit in just over a year. This one was a replacement from Jandy and lasted only a few months. The pool company did put one of Jandy's LV surge protectors at the control port terminals in main controller but nothing in the house, except for what we thought was an opto-iso between the Jandy and the processor.

I'll be happy to buy an opto-iso to go between the jandy and the processor but in my mind that's the wrong place. what about between the control wire from the pool and the 7620 interface? It's great to have the expensive processor protected but if you put opo-iso in front of the interface then you don't need a 2nd one between the interface and the processor.

Is the pool side 485? Would this work?

1310ds.pdfhttp://www.bb-elec.com/bb-elec/literature/485OP-1310ds.pdf

Are we saying this could replace the Jandy entirely? Anyone willing to try? Much cheaper and theoretically more reliable than the Jandy piece.

http://www.bb-elec.com/product.asp?sku=4WSD9OTB

Here's an emulator that I found that may be useful.

http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/Products/Controls/~/media/Zodiac/Global/Downloads/AquaLink_RS_Simulator.ashx

Edit - I see control works lists required firmware for their module but I can't find any firmware on the support site. Anyone ever tried updating firmware on these things?

TedW
06-23-2011, 01:17 PM
Just got off the phone with Jandy/Zodiac. The serial adapter has been redesigned and the new version will be available shortly. Still curious if that BB piece would replace it entirely. They are also releasing an IP control adapter with a mobile app.

In my case they sent me out another adapter on accomodation. If that gets things working again that's great but I'm not content to wait until it blows up again. I want to put opto-iso in FRONT of the adapter this time.

Robert
06-23-2011, 03:26 PM
Are you #@$#$% kidding me?Open one up. I laughed out loud when I did.

I think the Jandy box is more than just a protocol converter. It's a addressed device living on the RS485 buss with packets set to and from it. To use the BB part you would have to know and mimic the protocol. Probably more trouble than it's worth. When I used one with April Air the module took care of that for me.

As for opto isolation it's all about potential differences. The BB parts are good for between 1500 and 2000 volts end to end depending on the model. If you are seeing more than this you have other problems already. So if the Jandy box is in your rack but not grounded to anything it can rise to several hundred volts and still be OK. When a pump starts or stops it can cause short surges of this type and the opto part helps.

During a lightning event almost all bets are off.

jberger
06-23-2011, 05:11 PM
I found this on another board regarding the Jandy Adapter vs. a standard serial to 485 adapter.

For anyone wondering, I got a $15 USB to RS-485 adapter. I was able to control the system using the One Touch emulator from Jandy's site. This is comparable to the AquaLink RS PC-Computer Interface/Docking Station, except it's $15 on EBAY instead of $200 from Jandy. The data that I read off the the port with a serial port sniffer was not the simple ascii commands that I had hoped for as documented in the AquaLink RS Serial Adapter manual. It seems that those commands are translated by the adapter into a confusing mix of ascii and hex. If I can figure out the protocol, it should open doors for web based programs, phone apps, and all the home automation stuff that we can imagine. If anyone wants to peak at a dump of the data, send me a PM and I'll happily email it.

http://www.perceptiveautomation.com/userforum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3212&start=15

Also found a site that repairs the boards, guy is supposed to be the original designer for Jandy.
http://bpelectronics.com/index.html

TedW
06-04-2012, 01:06 PM
So I'm back to having to get the Jandy connection working again. It died last fall but the client just let it go until now as the pool was closed. He was there when it happened. No nearby storm at all. Power when out for about five minutes. When it came back on the Jandy was dead.

I called Jandy and their only comment was that I used the wrong wire between the Keypad and the interface. I'll put heavier stuff in but I'm having a hard time believe that was it. Seems like a classic ground loop to me. Opto iso on the 232 will take care of the ground loop but has anyone figured out how to do this on the 485 side to protect both the adapter and the processor? I would think if you opto isolate the 485 you would then have to phantom power the Jandy box?

Lastly has anyone worked with the new IP box? If we have to buy a new box anyway it might make more sense to go with the IP box, although that also means a new module in AMX to change to IP control.

This is the gift that keeps on giving :)

TedW
06-05-2012, 12:29 PM
I did follow the link here for Jandy repair and he says he can repair the interface for $125. $150 after 7/1.

OEX
06-05-2012, 12:46 PM
He can repair? I have 4 of them:)

TedW
06-05-2012, 01:17 PM
He can repair? I have 4 of them:)

I've got three sitting here from the one job. I figure we'll send two of them in for repair so we have one working and one backup.

pgershon
08-23-2012, 04:03 AM
I am now on my 4th Serial Adaptor in two years. I need to better protect it, obviously. I have a Jandy surge protector by my pool equipment outside. From there I have a 75 foot run to an indoor keypad and then another 75 foot run to a jandy multiplex by my computer. The multiplex branches to the serial adaptor and to an iAqualink. The serial adaptor then connects to my Mac through a TrippLite USB to serial converter.

I believe I am covered pool side, but need better protection by my PC from lightenstorms nearby, which seems to know out the serial adaptor. I have two spots I could cover and not sure which is more important: (1) RS 485 into multiplex, at the end of 150 foot wore run from pool; (2) RS 232 between serial adaptor and USB/Serial converter. (1) could be optical isolator or surge protector. (2) would be optical. B&B is out of stock on 4850P, which I tried to order. I think 9POP4 works for (2).

Thoughts? Must be people with experience, after reading this thread especially

metrognomicon
08-23-2012, 08:19 AM
9POP4 is what we use between the control system and the Jandy RS adapter but of course that doesn't protect the adapter. We also put a TPS/Joslyn surge device in series with the 9POP4 - probably overkill but cheap insurance. The 9POP4s do fail from time to time and are sometimes even bad out of the box. Any of the B&B's RS-485 opto-isolators should work to protect the RS adapter when placed on the Jandy bus before the adapter.

pgershon
08-23-2012, 12:05 PM
9POP4 is what we use between the control system and the Jandy RS adapter but of course that doesn't protect the adapter. We also put a TPS/Joslyn surge device in series with the 9POP4 - probably overkill but cheap insurance. The 9POP4s do fail from time to time and are sometimes even bad out of the box. Any of the B&B's RS-485 opto-isolators should work to protect the RS adapter when placed on the Jandy bus before the adapter.

Would like to put in B&B's RS-485 but it is out of stock. Could get their triple protection, or have found a used B&B unit I could get from another supplier. Another possibility is I could shorten the run by about 75 feet if that might be helpful. Also realized that before I lost 3 Jandy serial adaptors, I had lost two Jandy Telelinks too on my house side of same RS-485 run. Clearly something is happening during storms on the RS485 cable that runs underground (in conduit) from my pool house to my main house. Also worth noting that the underground cable is not standard Cat-5 cable but old fashioned copper telephone wire (I believe 8 wire cable). Could this be making my system more susceptible during storms? It seems that the serial adaptor and telelink are most damage prone, while the touchpad screen and the iAqualink do better.

jberger
08-23-2012, 12:09 PM
Jandy does NOT recommend Cat5 wiring for their 485 bus. They say the voltage drop is very problematic over 50ft.
So they recommend solid or stranded 22 as the minimum (the last time I asked).

I've had good luck with the BB box, hate it's out of stock not sure what else to use.
Maybe a TEL-MOD with a panamax?

pgershon
08-23-2012, 12:16 PM
Jandy does NOT recommend Cat5 wiring for their 485 bus. They say the voltage drop is very problematic over 50ft.
So they recommend solid or stranded 22 as the minimum (the last time I asked).

I've had good luck with the BB box, hate it's out of stock not sure what else to use.
Maybe a TEL-MOD with a panamax?

Would you go with a used 485OP? Or too dangerous?

Also, I am an amateur. Does the potential voltage drop issue make my equipment more prone to blow out in a storm? If so, does the 485OP protect me? It is very hard to change the in wall cabling at this point.

To be clear, I use cat5 from jandy box to basement of pool house. There is sprinkler cable in a pipe conduit going underground to my main house. The cat 5 runs from the basement up two floors to my office (ends at a Jandy multiplex switch). Then using 18 AWG thermostat wire to go from multiplex to serial adaptor (had used cat 5 before). Using 1242A 22AWG wire to go from multiplex to iAqualink.

pgershon
08-30-2012, 10:59 PM
I received the 485OP. Not sure how to hook it up to my Jandy however.