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AudibleSolutions
05-25-2005, 11:07 AM
I often find myself chastised for participating on these sites. Why waste your time helping individuals who are mostly new to this business. Then again I find myself the brunt of illhumor by these very same newbes for taking them to task for not understanding what can be involved in taking on certain lines or for not understanding some very basic information that each of us who calls this our profession ought to have.

I am not the smartest guy in the world although I am also not the dumbest either. I have been doing this a fairly long time and have learned some painful lessons the hard way. In other respects read or taught myself other bits of knowledge. I do not expect any kudos for the fact that I have this knowledge of that I enjoy passing it on.

This business has changed. Margins are tighter, in some respects integration is easier and products that used to be hard to obtain and resell are now available to any and all comers. The manufacturers wish to move boxes and they have taken a caveat emptor approach. If a client is foolish enough to hire someone unqualified then it's the client's problem not the manufacturers. They want sales and profits which is why almost every product is in distribution. And who cannot obtain any product if all you need is proof of a tax ID?

But I also see what I think of as arrogance among some newbes. Because one no longer needs specialized skills to set up large front or rear projection systems anyone and everyone can sell and install them. Only a few audiophile lines are still restricted which leaves what, Crestron and AMX. In NY the local rep will sign on any and all comers to AMX. As Crestron is still riding the crest of a sales wave they are more particular but even here, if you ask existing dealers, you would find that the prevailing opinion is that there are too many dealers.

Time and again I see posts, like the one on RC, where ignorant individuals hear about Crestron, call the rep and act insulted when the rep either a) suggests that it is expected that the firm sell the entire line b) that some minimum dollar figure/year is involved or c) that there are some other criteria involved, such as show room, number of individuals employed or yearly gross. What should happen when you think of expanding your horrizons or take on a new line is that you investigate it. You may do so on the web by checking out that company's web site. You may post questions on sites like this or others about other's experience with that product and most likely you might wish to visit that company's booth at some trade show. You might even thing to ring up the rep and ask what is involved to obtian the line.

It is not that I am so smart because I am a Crestron dealer. It is that I have a set of skills and knowledge base that I can use to make those sysetms work. Hey, if anyone could sell 100k of any product each year I guarantee they will get any line they want and whether they can make the system work is irrelevant as they will hire the talent to accomplish that. But I think it behooves anyone wishing to take on a line like Marridian, AMX or Crestron to see if they undertand what is involved. Do they understand the complexity of the product? Can they program it or pay to have someone else do it? Might they also be aware that hiring someone else can cut into their profits and that doing large jobs where Crestron/AMX is involved are not as profitable as the large price tags might suggest. Do they understand how to address devices on the system, trouble shoot a RS-485 network, understand how to check to see if there are problems with their wires ( hey, I'm sending a serial command to unit X and it does not work. Is the problem the code, com port settings, the wire or the pin outs? )

Think it might be a good idea to get your feet wet by partnering with an existing dealer on a job or two just to see what is involved. It might cut into your profits on that job but it might also open your eyes into what is involved. There are as many reasons to crow about a system that can do anything as to fear it. One needs to know when to say no or what is doable and what is too expensive in time to accomplish.

One idiot wrote on RC that he sells Lutron so why would he wish to sell Crestron lighting. [ What makes him an idiot is for making this comment without attaining the knowledge on which to make that judgement. Would he know if the Crestron product was better built { it is but on the margins} easier to program { it is; also a marginal difference } or that one is easier to integrate than the other in a particular instince. How can you make this jugdement without knowing both products intimately? ]That is actually a valid point that can be argued but you would need to really understand both systems and integration to have a fair discussion. It is taught that when you go on a job interview you should research the company and in particular the job for which you are interviewing. Why would you not attempt the same due dillegence when thinking of taking on a control system or product line? [What arrogance to pontificate on the superiority of one product without having an itimate aquatintence with both products? Might a company require you to sell all of their products? Think you could become a Sony dealer if you just wanted the TV's? You would have to take on all of the video products and possiblly the audio products as well. But I just want a touch panel! As if a Crestron or AMX system could be compared to a Pronto or a MX-3000? Certainly call the rep and find out what is required to get the product but don't act aggrived when he suggests you are not ready for prime time or that you need to carry the entire line. And PLEASE do not be so arrogant as to think that because you sell Lutron you can comment on other lighting products form other manufactuers--and yes, I sell and install Lutron lighting and have never sold D3 lighting products save for shade control.]

Newbes. Lose the attutude. If you are told you cannot obtain a line do not take it as an insult. Politics as much as experience can be involved. Develop a track record where you are doing jobs of a certain size and I predict you will be able to get the line you were once denied. But you should also know what is involved. Crestron and AMX are not Prontos nor MX-850s. And those products have their own set of challanges.

I can get cranky when I continue to read complaints from Newbes that they cannot get franchised to sell automation systems. I want only touch panels not thermostats and lighting control. Do you realize that you need to program these systems using real programing languages? No drag and drop GUI based software ( althothough the danger of software wizzards such as those Crsestron has or that is Control4 is that they will permit less qualified individuals to step up to the plate to hit against major league pitching when they have enough problems with AA pitchers.

Long time ago when I was thin I played club Lacrosse against Frank Irso. He revolutionized lacrosse when he played for Cornell in the early 70s by making the midfild an offensive posision. In many respects he was much more revolutionary and important than the Gate brothers. I also played against some All World players and quite a few All Americas. What I discovered is that my heart was willing but I lacked the physical gifts to be on the field with those competitors.

In this industry it's not merely god given talent but experience and salesmanship. Sell the job and you can buy the tallent to make it work. But you also need to understand what you should and should not do. Installing surround receivers and Prontos only goes part of the way. Do your homework. Learn the ins and outs of the product line you want and learn in enough so that you do no harm to yourself or your clients. And learn to be patient and not expect that because you have been in business 3 years and gross 250k per year that you can expect to obtain any product you want and feel insulted when you are told no ( which is often what those sales minimums are desgined to accomplish tactfully ).

Alan

Greg_C
05-25-2005, 12:07 PM
As a small dealer who has been turned down for certain lines, I agree with you. I have certain direct lines that are not whored out and I am loyal to them. I also know what I am capable of and what I am not. I can handle a Lutron Spacer system or Radio Ra, but Homeworks i sover my head. Same with Crestron. The 1 or 2 projects we do a year that require Crestron, I bring in a local Crestron Dealer to handle the client's needs. Yes, I make less than if I sold it, but the bottom line is that my client is taken care of properly, I don't have to worry about any service call issues, and I will get referals because my client got a system that does mote than we promised! I feel that in the long run, I will continue to be sucessful doing what I know what to do, and let the experts in alarms, Crestron, or Central Vac do what they know. After all, aren't we the ones screaming about the electricians cutting into our business?

sirroundsound
05-25-2005, 01:29 PM
Why would a company not want to sell you their products??
So what if your still green in this industry, your smart, and you can learn.
No show room, no problem.
Don't want to take on the whole line, so what.
Hey, you say you have a really big client that wants a really big system...
OOOhhhh, we better set you up as a dealer.

The sad part is that there are some companies out there that operate this way. Fortunatly most of us that have been around for a while know who they are and we don't deal with them.

Good companies, the ones your really want to get have been there done that. They all at one time or another have sold to new dealers then had to go back and bail them out of trouble.

Heck, sometimes even the good companies get hood winked into making bad decisions.

I have been working on a project for the last year and a bit that is a prime example of this. Anyone out there want to explain to me why someone would use an elan HD system with 5 Via TP's to try to do over 40 zones of music, 16 Cameras (8 of them are PTZ) and other functions? (I am sure someone out there that loves Elan will try to tell me they think they could do this, but is it the right choice for a client where money was no object?)
How about a house over 20k Sq Ft, Phone, Data, keypads, touch panels, security, and other, all wired with BLUE cat5, no one told them they sell other colours??

What I find amazing, way back when I was a newby, the first big house I had to do (around 9k Sq Ft) I made sure I had help. I hired another well known company to "assisst" with the project, as managers they ensured I understood what I was doing in my design, and they got me through my first big "programming" job. The company I worked for didn't make alot of money, but the client was happy and I learned alot to ensure the next job would go just as well.

ejfiii
05-25-2005, 07:30 PM
Another good discussion for us pups to learn from the old guard.

Alan, Frank Irso - COOL! I was HS All-USA and played against the Gaits and Maracheck, Petramala etc... (after they were just out of Syracuse) in club ball during my college. As a D guy, this was the highlight of my career.

Thanks for the knowledge.

AudibleSolutions
05-25-2005, 09:27 PM
I played D as well and my hero was Chris Kane. He and Eamon McEnearney wound up playing club Lacrosse with the LI Lacrosse Club when I was at college and it was fun to go and watch exhibitions where they would play Cornell. The clear was give the ball to Eamon and clear out the side. No one could stop him. He could out run or out quick any defenseman and out mussel the few who could run with him. One of the few times I saw someone go the full length of the field and score and then go and rank out the coach. Eamon was physically small but perhaps the toughest player I ever saw. If a goalie made the mistake of leaving the crease he was going to get hit. A defenseman paid more attention to to the ball then where Eamon was he was as apt to discover the scorers table after Eamon knocked him into it. The one game I played against Irso he was well past his prime, had no interest in running but the offensive skills were still appearent and the wrists. I hit him with a 10 yard head start and bounced off while he barely moved.

The next great defenseman was Dave Pietramala from Hopkins To my amazement he and John DeTommaso made the Gate brothers look ordinary in the 1990 World games. It was as if they had the short sticks as the ball always ended up on the ground and they picked up every loose ball.

You might note that all were LI products. I was anything but All America at any level, save slashing.

Alan

ejfiii
05-25-2005, 09:43 PM
Cool. See Petramala in my post above.

I played 4 years in the Vail July 4 Tourny and thats where I played against these guys. I was pretty good at tricky stick checks until I saw Petramala at the other end of the field. Holy crap - it was ridiculous. I pretty much sucked.

lowvoltguy
05-25-2005, 10:00 PM
Alan,

I think you are an asset to the CI industry … I think you’re very insightful and have a wealth of knowledge that I can only benefit from … As a fellow Creston dealer, I only hope to learn more and DIR :) …. I’m just a sales guy, but I try to learn something new EVERY DAY … I’m passionate about this industry and I feel every project I’m involved in is a reflection upon me … I understand your frustrations with all the JOKERS that get involved in OUR industry to try to make a quick buck (GOOD LUCK ;-) to them)

tomciara
05-26-2005, 12:49 PM
Some people ask questions who feel they know it all pretty much already - I'd echo you that they are jokers.

Others ask questions because they are serious about their work, take pride in doing the last 2% of the job as well as the first 98%, want referrals, and want to grow in their skill set. Sometimes due to ignorance (I surely fit here) the questions come off all wrong and a war ensues.

I think we could be a little more charitable with the ones sincerely looking for knowledge who need to be nudged along a little bit. Look at where we were 5, 10, 20 years ago, and the questions we likely asked. Just food for thought.

You guys are great and I sincerely appreciate your help. I hope I have helped a couple of you here and there. I came out of the repair side of things so understand the innards of a lot of this crazy stuff we install. Gives me a different perspective on it all. Gravitating to integration over the past 15 years makes me view products more as black boxes tho'.

Keep up the good work.

AudibleSolutions
05-26-2005, 03:39 PM
Tom,
Let's assume you knew comparatively little of integration when you left repair for full time installation. Yet I suspect you had heard of Crestron, AMX, Meridian, Krell, Bryston, Crown, and lots of other brands that never came across your test bench. You may or may not have known the way reps work or lines are granted. My point is not that you need to know how to wire an electrical <or> or <and> circuit or that you know how to calculte a voltage divider or even you know what that is.

You should know who the top players are even if you do not understand exactly what it entails. I am at this every day and I learn something new so it's not about how lucky I am to be so smart of to have been in the right place at the right time. If you are not granted a line do not take it personally and don't complain. Grow your business and try again some time in the future. You should know that a Crestron/AMX system is nothing like a Pronto or URC remote. And don't make comparisons between brands or manufacturers unless you are qualified. And what might make one qualified? How about some experience working with both products in the field or lab?

what caused me to become apocalyptic was not really one individual but a series of similiar posts followed by conversations with a few of my reps. I sense more attitutde in these posts than perhaps others do. Imagine a rep asking me to carry and sell an entire line when all I want is but one product!!! Imagine expecting me to have units on display!!! Imagine expecting yearly or quaterly minimums!!! And the nerve to that SOB not to grant me what I want. I have a tax ID and 2 years in this business. But I worked for [ Name the store or integration company ] for 1 year before opening my business. Or "I was in security, satellite or IT but I lost my job " so I should be able to not merely enter the business but have access to any product I would like. I have no problem with these indiviiduals entering the business or why would I post? But I do have a problem with the attitude when they receive a no.

Anyone wishing to see me smacked around can visit the Crestron Yahoo site where folks with actual degrees in Computer Science lurk. I am as apt to ask equally stupid questions there so it's not asking a question about a bitwise AND or is ASCII an analog value that causes my blood pressure to increase. Attutude and entitlement; the same questions about hum ( hey the first 20 instinces I had no problem with but think you could delay gratification long enough to do a search first? ) If someone write " I tried seraching but could not find an answer to my question or I read other threads but do not understand who would not come to their aid.

Certainly call the rep and find out what Crestron or AMX is. But don't be act indignant when you are told what the requirements are. Ask if this is standard practice but do not editorialize about the practice just because you previous experince in security ( where you purchased from a distributor ) was different. Anyone have any idea what the standard markups on security equipment is? And that is with recurring revenue. Just because the dollar amounts/item a small does not mean the profit margins are not significant. There is a paradigm we all should follow: The same basic installtion and programming for every job and a service contract to boot.

It is not the questions per se but the attitude and the outrage; or its commenting negatively about equipment or systems with which you are signularly unqualified to discuss. Talk politics or religion and we are all entitled to an opinion. But one should have some experience with a product if one is to criticize it. I took Optoma to task after I found their published serial protocol did not work. I also complimented them when they fixed it in their current models. I made some inaccurate comments about Escient and only complained because my motives were questioned. If someone had written you are wrong I would have said thank you for the correction. The bulk of the post on the last thread was reasonable. Where to I find a distributor with some knowledge about what he sells ( answer Capital Sales and one of my local distributors ). It was the last paragraph that was galling. And it was not even that post in and of itself but a series of them all of whom reeked with attitude.

Alan

Gary
05-26-2005, 11:27 PM
Alan, I think you've kind of scratched the surface on something that has been bothering me for quiet some time. Despite all the acrimony over big box stores, low video margins, and mass distribution, I think the biggest threat to our business is the flood of new "integrators" that lack knowledge, professionalism, and most important ethics.

In my market nine years ago when I started this firm, there was me, my old company (the one that fired me), and the 25 year old "audio salon". Now besides the big box stores, there are at least ten other rotating competitors, as the old ones go broke or leave town with a bunch of deposits, new ones pop up looking for a fast buck. I could make a good living just cleaning up the messes they leave behind. (and to some extent I do) But that leaves me with in a serous quandary, these savage jobs generally pay great and the client's are very motivated but it makes the industry I love on par with lawyers and used car salesman. This does not sit well with me.

Someone had a post a few days ago asking why we post here, I post here to pass some of the hard lessons I've learned onto the young guys starting out, the ones like Keith that are enthusiastic and have ethics, but are still learning, I do this in hopes of averting some of the carnage I see. But if you ask, then get an attitude, you deserve all the bad things that will more than likely befall you.

After getting taken to task one to many time at AVS (for the terrible sin of making money from something that should be a hobby) I no longer post in public forums accept on rare occasions.

Alan, I hope it wasn't me that questioned your motives on Escient, I occasionally give you a hard time, but it's all in jest.

And for anyone that's wondering, that company that fired me nine years ago, I bought a lot of there remaining stock at the auction a couple years later, bad move guys.

Theaterworks
05-27-2005, 06:42 AM
And for anyone that's wondering, that company that fired me nine years ago, I bought a lot of there remaining stock at the auction a couple years later, bad move guys.

The best revenge is living well, and bidding low at the bankrupcy sale.

AudibleSolutions
05-27-2005, 06:53 AM
Alan, I hope it wasn't me that questioned your motives on Escient, I occasionally give you a hard time, but it's all in jest.


It was Impacq on RC. When I originally did my due dilligence that was the state of the Escient product. In the intervening 2 years they evidently made changes and as once I make a choice I do not necessarily keep up with changes made to products I do not sell I was unaware of the improvements. I was wrong. Impacq suggested I was trying to "sell" against the Escient which bothered me. I was not trying to push Request but honestly conveying my understanding of the products. It turned out my information on the Escient was out of date and I was wrong. There was no parsonal agenda behind the incorrect information other than that I was in error.

Alan

idodishez
05-27-2005, 11:08 AM
Well, as the "idiot" of topic here, I have to wonder where you keep getting the "arrogance" vibe from me. I dont know how many times I have ADMITTED even though I have been in CE for 10 years, "playing" with the stuff for over 25 years, I AM new to this particular line of the business. The irony is that you suggest I INQUIRE, or LEARN about the line I was wishing to carry. Well thats EXACTLY what I did. YES, I was suprised to find that I had to carry the entire line, though I fail to see that as arrogance or attitude. After LEARNING, (as you suggested) that it WAS such a complex line, requiring much more than URC, Pronot, etc, I HAVE opted to not get involved for now, until I can grow into it at a later point.

I hardly see myself as a fly-by-night looking for a quick buck. If I just popped out of the woodowork last week, and decided to do CI knowing nothing about electronics, with the intent of just "riding the wave", I could see your point. This is a PASSION for me however, and you couldnt be farther from the truth.

You made some good points in your post, and for that I thank you. Just not sure why you insist on putting words in my mouth, and coloring me a trunk slammer/here today gone tomorrow.

Not sure if you kept up on the URC thread, or just didnt like the responses over there, but I pretty much summed up my thoughts over there.

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-custom/thread.cgi?5335,1


On 05/25/05 13:57 ET, Audible Solutionns said...


To argue that Lutron has a better product than Crestron without any idea about the Crestron lighting product or programming software is the height of arrogance. On what would one base that comparison?


All I ask here is that you tell me where i said ONCE that Lutron had a better product than Crestron. I said I was HAPPY with Lutron, becasue as Rick stated, " he wasn't interested in starting over with Crestron lighting since he has already becoming more familiar with Lutron." I had no desire to add another lighting line, as I am CONTENT (not due to SUPERIORITY) with Lutron


Given the fact that almost every product is in distribution it is not surprising that one would reach the conclusion that one is entitled to sell any product currently on the market with which one cons a clinent into giving them cash.


Unless this isnt directed at me like most of your post, you're mis-quoting me again. Never said I was "entitled" to sell anything! I even let it drop when I found that I COULDNT carry the line. It merely caught me off guard, as I was not expecting the response I got from Crestron.

. But the flip side to this situation is the arrogance when a rep for one of the few lines that is still restricted tells you you cannot have the line. It is not the trolling for information that is wrong it is the editiorial comments.


What editorial comments? Yes, I admit I WAS suprised to find that i had to do the ENTIRE line of lighting, HVAC, control, etc, to get into the control aspect of the line. I DID go into the phone call with the thoght process of "Customer aksed about Crestron, is it an option for me to use the Crestron line as well for A/V control?" When I found out otherwise, I mentioned it on here with my post on DISTRIBUTORS.

Its actually a good thing (though not for ME now) that I CANT get the line w/o minimums. As you mentioned, its a line that STILL requires devotion, minimums, direct sales, etc. While it may not help me now, I like to see that, as Im sure you do, for obvious reasons. I prefer to carry/install lines that wont get shopped, as this becomes a bigger problem. Even URC, who was SUPPOSED to be PROFESSIONAL ONLY, is still popping up on Ebay for pennies above our cost. So when a company (Crestron) still maintains that devotion, it shows there ARE still companies out there to strive for, that are the cream of the crop.

AudibleSolutions
05-27-2005, 12:41 PM
I think I have already answered many of your questions. My post here was not specificly directed at you. Although I think some of you comments which were edited out on RC do bespeak a shock and dismay at not being able to obtain a touch panel. Moreover, the topic of AMX/Crestron has come up here and elsewhere that how is it you would have no idea that you need to know programming lanuages to make these devices work. You don't just punch in numbers ( as on an alarm panel ) or enter in IR codes and build macros ( although you could just as well program these panels this way--but it would have to be hard coded--that is you would have to write a macro such as:

Push trigger1;
{
(push ir1),
( pulse 10);
(wait 20),
(push ir2);
(pulse 10),
(wait 20);
}

You are correct in your RC response that I have no idea who you are in what type of business you are in. But you indicated that you have been in the satellite business, both dbs and C-band. I never suggested that this was a dishonorable profession but that expertise in RF does not inherently imply expertise in CI. Moreover, if your entire business life has been spent purchasing equipment from distributors you would have no idea of what might be expected were you to go direct with a company.

But could one really play in CI and not have heard of Crestron or AMX? Can one be an auto machanic and not have heard of Mercedes or BMW? I am not suggesting that machanic would know the ins and outs of those automibiles but they would know of them. And it is difficult now to go back and site specific examples as in your case you edited them.

Who am I to define your experience but I find it hard to believe if you have been doing some kind of home theater/CI for 10 years that you have never tried to go direct with Niles, Sonance, Speakercraft, Russound or any of the other entry level speaker/control manufaturers. Had you obtained any of these lines you might not have been as shocked to have discovered that to be direct is to be expected to sell the entire line.

But I believe ( but as you have edited you post since posting it I cannot quote any longer ) you made mention that you did not need Crestron lighting as Lutron's was better. And the arrogance was predicated on you absolute astonishment that you could not just get a damn touch panel---as if! Can you believe the nerve of the SOB! Not only is it not in distribution but man, imagine expecting me to have to sell distributed audio, thermostats, shade controlers, surround processors, amps video switchers, camera pan tilt controllers, AM, FM and XM tuners, and damn how much do they cost?

How about a post that went like this. I have a client who asked me about a Crstron touch panel. I have never heard of Crestron but figured I check it out for him. I talked to the Crestron rep and he suggested a) that they were not putting on any more dealers and b) that I would need to carry the entier line, including lighting and HVAC. Is this typical of what compnies would expect for dealers being direct?

Alan

tomciara
05-28-2005, 12:34 AM
I guess I didn't pick up the arrogance in the posts that you did Alan. But thanks for clarifying.

Gary, I'm not sure there's a glut suddenly on the scene of slammers; I think there may be sinusoidal rises and dips in any given market; but there will always be new kids on the block whether it's big box stores (In our area all we had was Good Guys and it was a big deal when CC came to town. Now there's BB, Magnolia, Fry's, who else am I forgetting?)

I wonder if it's like TV repair in the 60's - anyone with a tube checker hung a shingle. But again, I think these things can be cyclical. Now it takes a top grade tech to repair a modern TV.

Perhaps the line of demarcation is the complexity of prevailing technology. If it's straightforward and learnable, more folks will try to do it with less qualification, but if it's more techie oriented, they'll stay out. Tube jockeys repaired TVs but left the biz when they didn't know how to check a transistor with an ohmmeter. Now if systems become plug and play we'll have lots of competition, but I believe the true custom systems will always require expertise and will keep the low tech guys out.

Rambling post, sorry. Hope some of it makes sense. Time for bed.

idodishez
05-28-2005, 11:26 AM
But could one really play in CI and not have heard of Crestron or AMX? Can one be an auto machanic and not have heard of Mercedes or BMW? I am not suggesting that machanic would know the ins and outs of those automibiles but they would know of them. And it is difficult now to go back and site specific examples as in your case you edited them.

Like I said, I HAD heard of them, and knew they were the "one to be had" for those who could afford it. Thats ALL I knew however. No, I DIDNT know the programming was that much more intense.

Who am I to define your experience but I find it hard to believe if you have been doing some kind of home theater/CI for 10 years that you have never tried to go direct with Niles, Sonance, Speakercraft, Russound or any of the other entry level speaker/control manufaturers. Had you obtained any of these lines you might not have been as shocked to have discovered that to be direct is to be expected to sell the entire line.

I havent been doing CI for 10 years. As stated, the CI part is new to me. I have been doing Home Theatre for years. Being in the satellite business, that gave me many oppertunities to be in a customers home around their A/V equipment. Many times thye would get satellite after going to CC or BB and purchasing their new HDTV, big screen, etc. As typical, they got no support from the box stores. Many of these customers actually were watching "HDTV ready" sets, THINKING they were watching HDTV, with no external s.t.b., and before the days of the built in tuners. Not sure if it was due to a saleman TELLING them thats all they needed, customer ignorance, or BOTH. But thats where I came in, and was often hired to "make it work" Very little of my experience was actually selling my own line, but rather installing a system purchased elsewhere. I would do the occassional Whole House Video, CCTV, etc, but that never required Crestron, Sonance, AMX, etc. It usually resulted in a trip to A*I for a Channel Plus line, URC line, etc.

( but as you have edited you post since posting it I cannot quote any longer ) you made mention that you did not need Crestron lighting as Lutron's was better. And the arrogance was predicated on you absolute astonishment that you could not just get a damn touch panel---as if! Can you believe the nerve of the SOB! Not only is it not in distribution but man, imagine expecting me to have to sell distributed audio, thermostats, shade controlers, surround processors, amps video switchers, camera pan tilt controllers, AM, FM and XM tuners, and damn how much do they cost?

This is where you totally floor me. Nothing was edited in my posts. The link was even provided in the post here. What you see is what I SAID in the beginning. The only thing that was edited was removing the distributors names, at Rick's request.

QUOTE "you made mention that you did not need Crestron lighting as Lutron's was better" Nope, never said that, YOU did, mis-quoting me. What I SAID was that I was HAPPY w Lutron, (as is still stated in the thread). And again, as Rick suggested, I had no desire to learn another line, as I just got done learning Lutron. They (Lutron) wanted us to go in w the same mentality as you suggest. That is, they only want us as dealers if we are going to meake Lutron our only/main lighting control line. If I decide to tackle Crestron later, then perhaps I will rid the Lutron line. For now, I am HAPPY w Lutron

Quote: "And the arrogance was predicated on you absolute astonishment that you could not just get a damn touch panel---as if! Can you believe the nerve of the SOB! Not only is it not in distribution but man, imagine expecting me to have to sell distributed audio, thermostats, shade controlers, surround processors, amps video switchers, camera pan tilt controllers, AM, FM and XM tuners, and damn how much do they cost?"

WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF? All that hostility, and putting so many words in my mouth. I give up.

How about a post that went like this. I have a client who asked me about a Crstron touch panel. I have never heard of Crestron but figured I check it out for him. I talked to the Crestron rep and he suggested a) that they were not putting on any more dealers and b) that I would need to carry the entier line, including lighting and HVAC. Is this typical of what compnies would expect for dealers being direct?

Sorry if I wasnt PC enough for you.

Alan