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View Full Version : CEDIA the good the bad and the ugly.



Gary
06-08-2005, 10:08 PM
We have recently had some spirited discussions regarding CEDIA, mostly negative. So I though I'd start a more positive tread about the recently maligned trade association.

CEDIA certainly has it's problems, but I'm going to start with some of the things it does well, first they put on a great trade show, hitting the floor never fails to make me feel like a ten year old on Christmas day.

Next there's public policy efforts regarding legislative and regulatory issues, this helps everyone in this industry, regardless of whether you’re a CEDA member.

The CEDIA ideal bank, this is an incredible resource, for those of you that haven't checked it out, I encourage you to do so. You'll find many documents from my firm, including templates for my custom home systems manuals.

I'm sure there's more I encouraged you post your thoughts on what CEDIA does well.

Now I'm going to address some of the things CEDIA could do better, first up, they should have better two way communications with the membership. I'm not talking about a mass e-mail coming from on high. Some of the education and certifications stuff seems a little heavy handed and we should have a way to express our wants and needs to CEDIA.

The next thing is education, for a lot of us that have been doing this for many years, the classes are not advanced enough and way to short. I also believe that the teacher is an important aspect of class and should be made known. The business management class could use some work and this is the one area owners need the most.

If CEDIA wants to "make the logo mean something" they might consider making consumers aware they exist. Advertising in trade and hobbyist mags just doesn't cut it. They need to place adds in main stream publications marketed at homeowners. Magazines like Oprah and the like would work well to.

I have some ambivalence about this, but if there going to be heavy handed with the integrator members maybe they could do the same with manufacture members and institute some kind of control standard.

This one in probably going to cause a lot of controversy, but if your going to claim that your membership is professional and ethical, then you need some kind of disciplinary board to deal with members that prove to not be worthy of these labels.

I think it will take some time before we know if certification is a good thing, it's not going to help guys that have been around and have a steady stream of referrals based of reputation. If it's going to help anyone, CEDIA needs to get the word out about who they are. If it keeps some grandstanding politician from making a name for himself on our backs, I'll be happy. Time will tell about this.

Many of you have said that CEDIA is hostile to small dealers, I'd like to know how? and what should they do about it?

One last thought, what should CEDIA do reguarding big box stores and chains that are getting into custom install. Does anyone have a doubt that all the "installers" at the new Best Buy home theater salons will be CEDIA certified. Is this a bad thing?

AHEM
06-09-2005, 01:37 AM
I don't even know where to start with this one.

Here's a few random thoughts because it's 1 am, and the ideas that are forming aren't coming out in a structured manner.

My first thought is that we've exanded more and more time and energy in debating the CEDIA issue and nobody from our trade organization has ever paid attention to any of it except for a small collection of loyal volunteers.

Every post with CEDIA mentioned in the subject winds up being approximately 90 percent negative and 10 percent positive. This says to me that CEDIA has a lot of unhappy campers out there and should take a small fraction of the energy that they use to promote certification to start listening to what people are saying about them.

I understand that it's being addressed, but the classes that they're charging for need to either charge less or stop being advertisements for vendors.

I agree that if they're going to require installer certification the there should also be a vendor certification.

A review board is also a good idea, but it would have to be implemented correctly to have any meaning.

I think that the entire certification program is a massive trainwreck waiting to happen.

Agreed, the tradeshow is great, yet it has it's share of problems too. Right after the last tradeshow, I tried booking rooms for this years trade show and guess what? All of the nearby hotels are already booked. (presumably by the large corporations). Also, a friend of mine used the automated badge machines to print out 10 badges with his name on it.

The CEDIA logo means nothing to the end consumer, but given the current direction of the organization, do we really want it to start meaning anything? By that I mean, if CEDIA's successful in making themselves into a household name, what does that mean for us? It would probably force everyone into joing and becoming cerfified. In other words, plan on spending more $$$$ in many cases just to have a logo associated with what we already know.

I don't recall anyone specifically using the word "hostile" when referring to small dealers, but certainly big money is what's driving an organization that was "brough to you" or "made possible" (as they say on PBS) by the small dealers.

Time after time, I hear about how small businesses are the "back-bone" of our economy. Yet, when it comes down to it, it's the large corporations who are getting the massive tax abatements and other incentives all the while our margins are getting slimmer and slimmer.

How about health insurance? Anyone try to purchase that for yourself lately? Maybe CEDIA could work on getting a organizational group plan together?

Best Buy in CEDIA? Why not? Hell, make Walmart a member too and require at least one flunky to pay $500 and pass an easy test.

Kelly
06-09-2005, 07:34 AM
Funny about this BB/CC CI thing.

CC made a feeble attempt at CI back a few years ago in SoCal, and failed miserably. So now that BB is going to go down the same road, CC is going to try it again?

But, BB and CC as CEDIA members? Gawd forbid! Although, if you've ever been to a SAM'S Club show, it could be a good thing. More freebies than you can ever carry. The suppliers cater to the SAM's Club buyers, and other employees that get to go, like you wouldn't believe.

I do believe that the CEDIA staff would see this BB/CC member issue as a nce big cash cow though. All that is needed is to rewrite the new membership guidelines once again, altering the requirements a tad.

"All sales/design and installation staff of each member shall be certified, or such member shall become a non-compliant member".

I gree with Gary on the trade show. EXPO is great. I've gotten a lot of things from this show. Both good, and bad.

ejfiii
06-09-2005, 07:55 AM
I agree that if they're going to require installer certification the there should also be a vendor certification.

This is a great point that seems to be lost a lot.

I don't care if the manufacturer has people on staff who are certified. I care if the products they sell to us members (I'm not a member) integrate well in our market segment that CEDIA member business are supposed to serve.

There are so many pieces of equipment out there that just dont get it. No discretes, no rs232, the list goes on and on. If we have to spend money to get certified to be members, they should have to have their equipment certified to be members. Otherwise the manufacturers are no different than CEDIA itself - sell as many boxes as they can to as many big stores.

I am sure CEDIA does a lot of good things.

tomciara
06-09-2005, 09:56 AM
In the consumer electronics service industry, of which I've been a part for 30 years now, there are trade associations. California at one time had the largest assoc of all the states, with about 700 members. National trade associations were a few thousand I'd assume. There was always talk about advertising the trade association so clients would recognize the name and call a member first. This was never done on any kind of consistent basis, if AT ALL, and honestly, I can't see it working for CEDIA. (BTW, I'm not a member.) Who would like to calculate the ad budget for making CEDIA a household name? Get real.

Face it, like the service associations that I belonged to, CEDIA is basically a brotherhood of sorts, a fellowship group where ideas and training can get passed around. It can't really go much further than it has without becoming seriously diluted.

Certification? I've heard about certification of electronics techs (the guys who fix your TVs and audio gear) since the 70's. It's gotten as far as some tests developed and administered, but then sort of died off. Listen please. Do you really believe passing a test and getting certified is going to significantly raise the standards of the industry? I say it's a pie in the sky. Require everyone to be registered? No way, not everyone wants to or cares to. You can't have the certification police traveling up and down the freeways to make sure everyone is certified or shut him down. In CA we have to be registered with the Dept. of Consumer Affairs to do repairs or be shut down. The unit that looks for unlicensed dealers is understaffed and will never be able to cover all the rental stores and itty bitty outfits that advertise repairs, and CEDIA or some legislative body could never require certification and enforce it.

Tests are not indicative of what you can or can't do - the guy who passes the test has knowledge but often has just studied the things he needs to know to pass. My wife and I and three of our kids are ham radio operators. We had to pass the tests to become technicians, general class, or extra class licensees. Five of us. Right now, only two of us could tell you the difference between a resistor and a capacitor if you dropped them in our hand, and that's because we work with it. Tests are not indicative of what you know but only what you have studied (and forgotten).

I don't know a fraction of what some of you know about systems integration, yet I know more than enough to provide a valuable service to my clients and give them more than what they pay for. This is because I've learned on the job, studied the great info you guys provide here and at RC, and generally am a hound for technical info. I'd be an asset with any of your businesses, but probably couldn't pass the test (or could I?). The certification thing is a cash cow, ballyhooed as something to raise the standards of the industry, but will accomplish the cash aspect well while only nominally raising the industry.

The bottom line is that it is basically a brotherhood type organization and serves a valuable purpose to many. As an outsider, I think the fees for membership should cover a bunch of training - not entitle you to it at a greater, far greater cost. I assume many of the instructors are volunteers. Why rake your members over the coals for a bunch of cash for training when that's why they joined? I've never gone to training in my service associations and paid more than just a nominal fee to make sure I showed up, and most are free. I think this causes bad blood in CEDIA land.

IMHO and all that.

AudibleSolutions
06-09-2005, 07:45 PM
Gary,
If everyone wrote as well and expressed themselves as rationally as you there would be little to desagree or debate. Sort of like Foo on Crestron programming. I am no marketing wiz. I know less about manufacturing. I wish the powers that be would read what you wrote and put some of those suggestions into policy. Education is good. Who should not have read Milton, Shakespeare, Plato and Marx. And while your at it why not include reading the bible in its original texts. That means learning ancient Greek and still more ancient Hebrew. But how are you not like the Preacher preaching a sermen to those already in chruch? How are you going to get your thoughts to the attention of those who effect policy? Great show and the gal's work really hard for not a lot of money. Now the top professional staff is an other matter.

Alan

OEX
06-09-2005, 09:20 PM
I agree that there should be some type of benchmark by which we can be measured but CEDIA is putting the cart before horse. Self regulation is always the best and think that is what CEDIA is trying to accomplish. Unfortunately they are going down the wrong path IMHO.

First, CEDIA has Z E R O brand recognition. I have been asking EVERY customer and builder I work for, some VERY technically saavy, and none have ever heard of CEDIA. The brand should be recognizable before implementing such a education policy. Right now, the brand only means something to our competitors. Gary or Alan might know I have passed/taken none of the tests but that doesn't mean squat about my qualifications. They can't determine if I suck or not (I think). My customers have never heard of CEDIA so I doesn't mean squat to them. So where does that leave us? $500 lighter for taking a test that means ZIP and a minimum of a days lost wage. I can spend my money in better places. For 1 years CEDIA dues and the cost of the Install 1 test you can take the HAA or ISF test and really learn something that will improve your finished products and your skill as an installer.

The education requirement should have been a minor note on a very large, cataclysmic type overhaul of the CEDIA brand. I get tons of mail and junk from CEDIA but my clients NEVER get any type of information. In many CE rags C$nn%ct H$me has adds, "Which installer should we trust?" Why can CEDIA spend some money for public awareness? It would help.

We should accept CEDIA is a BRAND. Like Mon$ter, B*se, ISF, HAA, Mirage, whatever. It needs to be marketed and mean something to the end users. If the end user has no knowledge of the brand - its worthless.

Like all brands its goal is to make money while providing some positive benefit along the way. Look at all the marketing stuff. This cable IMPROVES yadayadayada. Or the speaker sounds BETTER because yadayadayada. Or our certified calibrators can make your picture BETTER yadayadayada. Get it?

What can CEDIA DO - PROVIDE - MAKE BETTER??

Gary - Are we supposed to promote the CEDIA brand or is CEDIA supposed to be promoting us members in exchange for our annual dues? Hmmmmmm. Make me wonder.

Kevin

AHEM
06-09-2005, 10:35 PM
Tell them that for $500 a year, you'll start promoting their name to your customers.

Gary
06-12-2005, 02:44 PM
Gary,
If everyone wrote as well and expressed themselves as rationally as you there would be little to disagree or debate. Sort of like Foo on Crestron programming. I am no marketing wiz. I know less about manufacturing. I wish the powers that be would read what you wrote and put some of those suggestions into policy.

Stop Alan, your making me blush, I doubt that's a fair comparison, Foo is sort of like the Yoda of Crestron Programmers.


Education is good. Who should not have read Milton, Shakespeare, Plato and Marx. And while your at it why not include reading the bible in its original texts. That means learning ancient Greek and still more ancient Hebrew.

Most Americans won't even read our own great authors, Twain, Emerson, Hemmingway, and didn't Francis Bacon write most of that Shakespeare tripe?

I'm old enough that they still taught Latin at my Catholic grade school, comes in handy more often than you would think, kind of like being able to convert between decimal, hex, and binary.





But how are you not like the Preacher preaching a sermon to those already in church? How are you going to get your thoughts to the attention of those who effect policy?
Alan

I don't know, maybe you could sweet talk Julie into letting me write an article for CePro.

Gary
06-12-2005, 03:07 PM
I agree that if they're going to require installer certification the there should also be a vendor certification.


I assume by this you mean some kind of control standard that their products meet. When I mentioned this in my original post I said I had some contradictory attitudes about it. I think it would make our jobs as programmers much easier, on the surface that's a good thing.

But if every product conformed to a control standard most of our skills would be unnecessary, the clerk at your favorite big box would simply explain to the customer "just plug this smart remote into your computer and answer some simple questions about your system and that's it, you'll have one easy to use remote control" and then what, I'd be forced to get a real job.

Jerry
06-12-2005, 04:43 PM
I believe that CEDIA's mass advertising campaign will come when they sign up every BB and CC.
Sounds like a smart marketing plan to me.
Too bad that it could potentially hurt a lot of smaller firms. But then again, large corporations seems to be the huge trend.
USA, land of free enterprise! At the rate we are going, this will not be a true statment for long.

sirroundsound
06-12-2005, 08:37 PM
It's hard to keep this on a positive note, those that go love the show, lots of courses have been good, some just a waist of time. I think the big bug is the way Cedia has gone about the new changes, and making these changes at a time before Cedia has really made it's mark on the general public.
I am going to have to have a talk with some of the architects we deal with, I know they have to earn education credits too. But I also know that some companies that do 1- 2hr courses that are worth a credit, a) go to the firm, b) actually bring them lunch and c) the firm doesn't always have to pay for the course.
I certainly don't see anything in the cedia university information that indicates anything other than I am going to have to pay to take a test, then over the next 3 years continue to pay to take various courses to earn enough credits to keep my certification for another 3 years.
This is where the manufactures should come in. I see no reason why Dalite (as an example) couldn't come to my city, book a room, do their dog and pony show, talk about screen technologys and their products, pop for lunch, and at the end, I get a credit for attending. Is this going to happen?? I hope so, there are not too many courses left at the big show that I need to take, or haven't already taken, do I get credit for those, even if I took them over the last few years?
If getting some of the big chains certified helps, then great. But I don't see how that will help most of us. I realise we have to sell ourselves on our own merits, but to many consumers, once we are grouped in with BB and CC, we can't really use Cedia as a selling point. The client will look and wonder why we are so expensive, the guys at BB are certified too, and they charge half the price, must be because they have such good buying power and we don't.
Of course someone that shops at BB and CC isn't my client anyway, but I am sure there are alot of you out there that presently are making your living from this level of client.
It's going to be interesting to see the results over the next year or 2.
Much like we often have to do, Cedia will have a lot of hand holding to do to keep alot of the smaller independant companies happy.

AHEM
06-13-2005, 12:15 AM
From the CEDIA "Home Theater Installation Finder"..................

"CEDIA companies subscribe to a strict code of professional conduct and ethics, giving you peace of mind."

Can someone please explain just what the hell code that is and where can I complain about those who don't?

Gary
06-13-2005, 12:39 AM
From the CEDIA "Home Theater Installation Finder"..................

"CEDIA companies subscribe to a strict code of professional conduct and ethics, giving you peace of mind."

Can someone please explain just what the hell code that is and where can I complain about those who don't?


http://www.cedia.net/whatis_cedia/ethics.php

It's right on the menu.

OEX
06-13-2005, 05:58 AM
No No NO no - Gary - we don't tattle now do we? We let whatever goes on go on and leave it at that. No ethics or respect for others. Isn't that what you said? Now I' m getting confused. If my memory srvers me correct, "Take the high road" and screw it. Hmmmmm

All this ethics is starting to sound like phychobabble to me

Gary
06-14-2005, 10:24 PM
No No NO no - Gary - we don't tattle now do we? We let whatever goes on go on and leave it at that. No ethics or respect for others. Isn't that what you said? Now I' m getting confused. If my memory srvers me correct, "Take the high road" and screw it. Hmmmmm

All this ethics is starting to sound like phychobabble to me

Am I being goaded here?

OEX
06-14-2005, 10:41 PM
Gary - please help me understand. Is CEDIAs current mission to make installers 'credible?' Are they not attempting to self regulate as opposed to government intervention? Am I confused? I don't think I am but who knows?

If this is in fact the case, when I had a problem with another installer, your concensus was to let it pass.

"And lets not get in the habit of "telling" on other firms, were not seven years old, if they have bad ethics or act unprofessional, there's this thing called karma. "

It is almost always better to take the high road.

get finished as fast as you can, ...and move on

What would CEDIAs thought on this be since both parties involved are members? Would CEDIA say their member was right in touching some elses stuff? How will self regulation work if we can't report improper behavior? Would CEDIA agree with your comments? They too believe in karma? Doesn't seem like something to invest $500 a year in.

I'm not trying to be agrumentative but am trying to see how the new CEDIA mission will play out. I know you are active in CEDIA and your above comments are not consistant with what my interpretation of CEDIAs new mission is.

AudibleSolutions
06-14-2005, 11:02 PM
Ever fight a parking ticket? Spend 3-5 hours waiting and it's a kangaroo court. On a very rare occasion you beat the tax collector but on the whole it's a better use of your time to just pay the tax. In principal, you have a point. However, I believe the crux of Gary's point when he advised you to take the high road was not to waste psychic energy and to move on. Were you right? I doubt any but the lone "guest" did not identify with your plight or sympathize with your predicerment.


I do think I understand what CEDIA's new policy is about. At the original Management Conference some of the gurus brought in to lecture suggested that the future of our industry would be labor and not equipment sales. Internet and discounters would eliminate profits on equipment. There would therefore be a need to differentiate one firm from an other and liscencing the CEDIA logo was one of the suggestions they made. In essence it's a minimum set of standards that testifies to a minimum or modicum of skill in the CI industry. It may also have the benefit of forestalling government regulation or liscensing.

Were residential were similiar to commerical and a bid specification on jobs requred certification I would be less against it. If I did not think this policy the creature of large firms actively trying to hurt smaller firms I might be more in favor of the new policy. If I thought CEDIA educational classes actually did more than wet the lips of a thirsty man I might be more in favor of the new policy. If CEDIA actually marketed to the public and made CEDIA membership and certification a marketable product I might object less. If I could be convinced that I might obtain something tangable for my investment in time and money I would invest that time and money. So far the only one winning or benefiting from these new rules are CEDIA through coercive payments for education, test preparation and of course the test itself.

I doubt self regulation is contemplated. Hire a CAIP who does a less than satisfactory job I somehow doubt Crestron is going to decertify him. If a company does a less than satisfactorary job installing some system ( Crestron, Lutron, Russound, Elan and such ) and I doubt if the manufacturer will take away his franchise. It's akin to a "Good Housekeeping" seal. It is not supposed to be about quality but the appearance of quality.

Alan

Kelly
06-15-2005, 07:29 AM
It is not supposed to be about quality but the appearance of quality.

Alan

Now THAT is a sad statement isn't it. Basically just some smoke and mirrors.

Gary
06-17-2005, 10:51 PM
Gary - please help me understand. Is CEDIAs current mission to make installers 'credible?' Are they not attempting to self regulate as opposed to government intervention? Am I confused? I don't think I am but who knows?

Is this a question?



If this is in fact the case, when I had a problem with another installer, your concensus was to let it pass.

What would CEDIAs thought on this be since both parties involved are members? Would CEDIA say their member was right in touching some elses stuff? How will self regulation work if we can't report improper behavior? Would CEDIA agree with your comments? They too believe in karma? Doesn't seem like something to invest $500 a year in.


I don't know what CEDIA's thoughts would be and neither do you, but I stand by my statement's, it's the clients prerogative to report ethical issues with CEDIA members, one dealer "telling on" another just seems wrong to me. How do you know if it's legitimate or just sour grapes. What happened to you sucks, but if the client doesn't see how they destroyed something he paid for, then I don't see any recource for you.

All that said, you could report them to CEDIA and see what happens.




I'm not trying to be agrumentative

Really :o


but am trying to see how the new CEDIA mission will play out. I know you are active in CEDIA and your above comments are not consistant with what my interpretation of CEDIAs new mission is.

Only time will tell how this will work out, and by active you mean I write a check once a year and show up at the show.