AV Rack Cabling Budget

[DougS]

Looking for feedback on rules of thumb for AV Rack Cabling budget.

This is an average size rack (Middle Atlantic ASX-32) with power conditioner (Panamax 4300), AV receiver (NAD T753), 12-channel audio distribution amplifier (Speakercraft BB1260), Multi-disc DVD/CD player (Denon DVM 2815), 4X2 Video Switch (Video Storm CSM 42), and IR connecting block (Russound).

In the past I've used standard length cables but have found that the extra cable gets unwieldy so I'm planning to build custom length cables.

Is there a good rule of thumb for estimating the cost of building and installing custom cables?

Thanks,
Doug

[vwpower44]

Unfortunately, I have the task of figuring this out. It sucks. I just figure out where I am going to place the equipment and guestimate the length and what the cables will be terminated with. After a few years it will become a little easier. I dread this part of the proposal more than anything. You basically have to lay the system out in your head and figure what length and what termination will be used. I explain to the customer that this is a guestimate, and an actual amount will be given in the invoice, but will be no more than 10% of the guesstimated cost. Of course providing no alterations to the proposal or equipment. WE use the pro-connect stuff from AVAD. It rocks except for the mini-RGB connectors.

Mike

[DougS]

Mike,

Thanks for the feedback. I've been using Canare Cable and Connectors but am planning to switch to Liberty. We've already prewired mini-coax for video runs and Audio-CAT (14/4, Cat5e) for distributed audio. And we're leaving 12' extra cable at the AV head-end.

I use an Excel spreadsheet to estimate wiring runs and may add a section to estimate wiring up the rack, i.e., type of cable, cost per foot, and time required to add connectors. As with everything else, it always takes longer than expected and I'm tempted to simply figure in a days labor to get the job done right.

/Doug

[sirroundsound]

Most racks will easily eat up a man for a days worth of work, add in the price you charge for the "estimated" cable use and ends. Don't forget to add a package of ties or velcro wrap, labels and any other specialty items you use.Take that figure and compare it to the value of the gear being connected.
Do a few sample racks on paper, avarage out the percentages.
Now you should at least have a way of giving a reasonable budget to wire the rack. (5 to 10% of the gear value, maybe more depending on quality and your mark up)
Because the one day labour doesn't change based on value of gear, you should also find your minimum charge.

[ejfiii]

Doug, why are you dropping Canare? Here I thought I was the only CI guy on the planet who uses their stuff and I couldn't be happier. In fact, I freakin love it.

Why is the Liberty grass greener?

TIA

[DougS]

TIA,

Liberty's ConnecTec termination system is simpler and faster. No messing with pins and I found that the Canare stripping tool needs periodic adjustment. Plus liberty has every type of cable under the sun therefore only one vendor to use for all cable solutions.

[ejfiii]

Hmmm, thats interesting. Maybe worth a look. Thanks.

Found it here: https://secure.libertycable.com/ecomm/catalog/cat_page.php?group=79 and it looks like the minirgb cables need additional small parts. I like compression fittings for f connectors but I think I prefer the Canare crimps for critical wiring like equipment and racks.

By the way - TIA stands for Thanks In Advance.

[DougS]

ejfii,

Thanks for the acronym explanation.

For additional info on Liberty's termination system check out their videos, http://www.libertycable.com/videos_content.php

[ejfiii]

Yea, the RG6 and RG59 connectors look faster. But it seems like the mini 25 and mini 26 would take as slong as a canare crimp. Looks cool though.

Thanks.

[sharrison]

I usaully charge T&M for custom wire work. When I pre-wire I run off an extra 10ft of all the wire. So wire cost is covered in pre-wire. Then when I finish trim out I cut wire to length and use the 10ft for all interconnects. With T&M I'm covered on the ends and labor.

Shawn

[OEX]

I use Libery mini RGB and really dig it. The prep tool is ok but not awesome. I did a job the other day and had to make 20 terminations on cable that was already run. I made the terminations, hooked up the DVD and receiver and was gone in 30 minutes. While the stinger can be a PIA they are relatively easy to do. I haven't had a dud termination in the last 200 I've done. (Knocking ever so profusely on wood.)

[idodishez]

Im soon going to start making my own interconnects for behind racks, etc.

I didnt realize I was getting into that much of a pricing issue. Up to now, I usually just try to come up w a rough figure that will cover all my interconnects, using pre-packaged/lengths form whatever brand is being used. (Pro-Flex, Monster, RCA, etc) Component and optical for DVD, DVI and optical for HD-DVR, etc etc.

When transitioning to making my own lengths, am I looking at more of a cost? I havent sat down and figired it out yet, but I figured it would about be a wash. Assuming this was true, I would be estimating the jobs as normal.... $xx for Component cable 3 foot, $XX for optical cable 3 foot, etc etc. Do you see a need to cost it out to the actual foot and connector?

[sirroundsound]

Just remember, if you are going to start making your own interconnects, and you want to make money, you have to make money on the parts, and the time it takes to put them together, plus the time it takes to actually connect them. If you have been using Monster or other over priced cables, then yes, the price may come out somewhere close to what you have been charging, except now you may actually be making real money.

[idodishez]

Is the quality of cables that are hand made equal to ot better than the pre-packaged interconnects?

For now I would just be using Pro-Flex digital coax and compression fittings from All@@t.

Just thinking about it, and I would have what, about $10 in a 6 ft component cable set w cable and fittings?

And no, I dont sell the real high end Monster stuff ($150 DVI cable) unless a cust asks for it.

[sharrison]

Also remember that most customers have seen the price of after market cables. So with the cost of ends,cable and labor there is still a lot of room for profit margins.

Make sure to keep most of your scrap wire to also use for interconnects.Are cost on compression ends is about $1 each if you prewire and can use the scrap your looking @ about $1 a ft plus labor.So for use it's about $2.50 -$5 a cable.

For us with prices dropping on equipment but are margins stay close to the same, cables are a great place to make up the difference.The customer was probaly going to pay for monster or another brand of aftermarket cables. So charge a little below those cables and you'll make good money and the customer gets a good deal.


Just my .02,
Shawn

[ejfiii]

Yup with the price.

Its actually not that hard for me. My Canare RCA connectors average about $2.50 my cost and I charge $5.00 for each one. Then I use the same margin on the cable. The the conductor mini cable costs about a buck and quarter so I charge $3/foot. Its not hard to figure out how much you need in a rack ahead of time. So for me, a component cable has 6 connectors ($30) and say 10 feet long ($30) makes it $60. Then charge the time make it and put it in. But thats all part of the building the rack fee.

I always compare my canare prices to Blue Jeans Cables as they sell the same stuff. I usually come in a bit lower.

[sirroundsound]

Not sure why you would worry about coming in lower $$. You just added another "custom" element to your work, the rack will actually look professional.

The client has a choice, they can have a rack with consumer cables strung all over the place (what the other guys will give him), or your "high quality" "custom" cables, cut to size, neatly tied down. A rack with fit and finish. A client should pay more for that.

[ejfiii]

I'm not worried about it at all. Just stating where my pricing methods come out.

I agree (and forgot to say) that the main reason I do it is so that the rack is neat and there are not extra length or coiled up wires anywhere.

Its definately worth more and they see the value when I pull the rack out and they see the wires.

[OEX]

Anyone used or seen Planet Waves stuff?

[roddymcg]

Anyone used or seen Planet Waves stuff?

Was that the booth across form Control 4 at Cedia??

If so, it looked like it could be very interesting, I just haven't had the time or the energy to try something new that could cause so many call backs.

Still sitting on the fence waiting for someone else to try first.:)

[OEX]

If we keep waiting the fence will be overloaded with all our fat asses.

[ejfiii]

wtf is it?

[sirroundsound]

isn't planet waves the company that had the very cool screw type connectors? No more poor solder jobs, or if you do one that didn't come out right, no more wasted ends, just cut the wires, and re screw the rca or BNC end back on. Not much to sit on a fence about, their cutting tool was also a tester. I for one am going to try them, only problem is they don't seem to have a method of dealing with us north of the border people. So I have to get things through our Florida company, which is still in the set up stage.

[OEX]

wire and ends - no big deal but my yamaha rep said the stuff was great - yada yada yada.

[roddymcg]

If we keep waiting the fence will be overloaded with all our fat asses.

How did you know I was a fat ass??

[krasmuzik]

If you sub out the in-wall wiring - do you think it is cost effective to do the rack from spools? I mark up the ProFlex precut cables to be near what a BlueJeans.com cable would be and show the customer the Monster cable picture that they are the same made in the same factory - I just get them in a cheap made in china baggie. I am just not convinced that the tooling and spooling costs justify it for racks alone - even if you mark up T&M. The last job I had was spaghetti from five years of previous installers all with their favorite brands - I think the customer would have paid me just to clean it up and rerack even though they were decent cables. It probably would have solved a hum issue too. I only bought what was needed though - did not want them to think I am loading up the bill with high profit cables like the CircuitShack kids.

If you already do in-wall - then you have all the parts - so the cost is spread out and not much extra cost to customize the rack wires.

[crestronwizard]

I use the Liberty stuff as well and couldn't be happier. The racks look 100% better. I usually figure a roll of each color....red,white,blue,green,yellow and clear. Then fig a couple hundred ends and I have about a grand invested including wire ties,etc. So I do a wire budget of $2k or more not including the labor to build the rack. The customer still comes out even or less than doing name brand cables @ $35-$65 a piece. Someone mentioned 5-10% of equip cost and that is prob right.

[install1]

We custom make our own cabling for racks and such, for pricing we basically figured out the cost(including labor) of a 6 foot length with ends and then we we figure out exactly what we will need. Do the math and add a days labor and that gives us the price of the wiring package. Generally the margins are great as all the lengths needed are not 6 feet. Bonus for us to cover potential labor overage and when we miss a cable in the calculation.

[Anonymous]

I just wired up a Synthesis system with Planet Waves on Tuesday. My first attempt at making my own cables for a rack, we had been using the low end ixos stuff for years but I finally got my boss to order some of the PW stuff after seeing the demo at CEDIA. I use an Ideal Cable Cutter instead of the gizmo they sell you.

[Special-Ed]

dont really know how i come to my numbers.... i just know that it takes so many ends and so much cable and so much time to do a rack.....

i'm kinda like rain man.... i see it or spec it and know exactly how much i should charge...

if i like the customer i do it for pretty much cost or a flat fee of $800.
a current customer is so great i only charged him $800 bucks for rack wiring..... not the whole house ound wiring or theater wiring...just the racking and rack cabling including all whole house sound and theater terminations......


if not 5-10% of job on average

[Toronto122]

$800??? That seems VERY cheap indeed, but I guess it depends on what's in the rack, right? If it's a surround sound receiver, DVD player, and a Cable box, good for you, if it's a whole home audio system, with seperates for the HT, then wow, that's a smokin' price!

I usually do a quick count, add some parts under the heading of "Misc", include a few rolls of wire, figure out my labour, and then double everything, I'm usually close.

[Special-Ed]

ada suite 16 , ada amps, ada suite 7.1, amps etc. yeah 800 bucks is cheap about cost for the canare ends and the vpm2000. but i made plenty of cash on equipment.

like i said its all wether i like the customer or not.

ed